The Tarot mix-up with The Choice

[EccleezyAvicii]

Having deeply engaged with the Ra Material, I’ve grown particularly interested in its unique interpretation of the Tarot system. A new understanding of the cards XXII and XXI has recently come to light for me, suggesting a potential misalignment with the present interpretations. I aim to explore and substantiate this perspective, inviting further discussion from this community.

Thesis

I propose that traditional interpretations of Archetypes XXII and XXI in the Ra Material may benefit from revision: Archetype XXII, traditionally understood as The Choice, aligns more closely with ‘The World’ or ‘The Universe’, while Arcana XXI (The Way of the Spirit) is better represented by ‘The Fool’.

Key Evidence and Analysis

What can be surly concluded

1. Ra does not explicitly state that The Fool is associated with Arcana XXII or that The World is associated with Arcana XXI.
2. Ra independently discusses The Fool, The World, and The Choice, providing information about each.

Interpretation of Question 80.21

80.21 Questioner: Then I would guess that the twenty-first archetype would represent the contact with intelligent infinity. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct; ***although*** one may also see the reflection of this contact, as well as the contact, with intelligent energy which is the Universe or, as you have called it somewhat provincially, the World. 

A critical piece of evidence comes from question 80.21, where Ra connects the twenty-first archetype to the contact with intelligent infinity. However, Ra’s nuanced language, particularly the use of “although,” suggests there is more to consider:

1. Initial Affirmation: Ra agrees that the twenty-first archetype relates to contact with intelligent infinity.

2. Qualification: The addition of “although” suggests a more complex relationship involving reflection and interaction, which fits better with the concept of ‘The World’ or ‘The Universe’.

Supporting evidence and interpretations

1. The Fool is described as the great aspect of faith, and is characteristic of the spiritual neophyte (67.30).

   • As we know, Faith is blind and one-directional, this aligns much more with the idea of the Fool.

2. The Choice is described as the foundation of transformation and the basic architecture of the Logos’ plan for this density (77.12).

   • Conceptually, this tracts much more with the themes present on The World/The Universe. Present in the symbolism are most of the parts present throughout the others, as well as the three string harp.

3. The Choice is relatively fixed and single compared to other archetypes (77.13).

   • I think The World represents this:

   • Each symbol is presented as having specific, consistent meanings. These meanings are tied to fundamental principles, they are the core symbols in the Arcanum.

   • Integral Structure: The various components of the Arcanum are presented as part of an integral whole, with each symbol playing a necessary role in the overall meaning. The relationships between the symbols (such as the animals, winged fish, 3 three string harp, cycle, etc.) further reinforce this sense of an underlying, fixed structure.

   • Fixed meaning it’s symbolism isn’t fluid or open to individual variation. The Fool is most certainly open to individual meaning as evident in 67.28-30. The World’s symbolism on the other hand is fixed in both its integral structure and its relationship to the rest of the Major Arcanum.

4. The adept calls directly through the spirit to the universe for its power (80.14).

   • This suggests a distinction between the spirit and the universe, making it more natural to associate faith (The Fool) with the Way of the Spirit, rather than the Universe.

5. Consciousness disciplined by will and faith can contact intelligent infinity directly (80.20).

   • This further supports the idea of faith being associated with the Fool and the Way of the Spirit.
   • Consider the Way of the Body, Arcana 14, traditionally known as Temperance which aligns well to will. Consciousness aligns well with the Way of the Mind likewise. These are the three strings of the harp.

6. Contact with intelligent energy is the energy of the Logos, which heals, builds, removes, destroys, and transforms (80.22).

   • This description aligns with what Ra discloses about the Choice and its connection to the Logos.
     The World actually features each of these symbols:
     • Heals - Man
     • Builds - Bull
     • Removes - Bird
     • Destroys - Lion
     • Transforms - Winged Fish (center)

Additional points supporting the association of The Choice with “The World”

1. The Choice is described as the archetype that was not fully understood or properly emphasized in Ra’s own experience but is key to unlocking the transformative potential of the entire archetypical system (88.16, 89.26).

   • This suggests a culminating, integrative function that resonates with the symbolism of “The World” card.

2. The Choice is characterized as the “unifying archetype” and is linked to the Logos (77.12, 77.16).

   • This aligns with the overarching, comprehensive nature of “The World.”

3. The archetypes are meant to orient the seeker toward “the central consideration of unity,” with The Choice serving as the ultimate signpost or gateway to this realization (97.9).

   • This reinforces the idea of The Choice as representing the culmination of the evolutionary journey.

4. The Significators of Mind, Body, and Spirit are linked to the imagery of the aging process and the removal of the individual from third-density incarnation (105.19).

   • This supports the concept of The Choice as the completion of the evolutionary journey, where the veil is lifted and the deeper unity of all things is revealed.

Conclusion

While Ra does not explicitly equate The Choice with “The World,” the characteristics ascribed to this archetype align closely with the themes of wholeness, integration, and cosmic unity typically associated with that tarot card.

The connection is further strengthened by Ra’s statement that the archetypes after The Choice (i.e., the Minor Arcana) have not been dealt with by them and are outside the scope of their evolutionary model. The evidence and interpretations provided support the argument that Archetype XXII, The Choice, should be associated with “The World” or “The Universe,” while Arcana XXI (The Way of the Spirit) should be linked to “The Fool” (Faith).

Finally, while it is certainly very easy to look at the Fool card and say, ‘Hey, that looks like The Choice’, I think there is a stronger case for the same argument to be applied to, ‘Hey, that looks like the Way of the Spirit’. The life of most great sages and teachers of wisdoms, ie. their way, is certainly represented by this symbolism in the Fool. Likewise, when you switch the World to all the spots in the recommended sequences, (the 3x7 rows: 1,8,15… and columns: 1,2; 3,4; 5, 22; 5,7…) it makes so much more sense. The symbolism of the World in the context of the choice is so much more dynamic.

What are your thoughts?

[Predicttor]

Greetings! It seems that in 80.21 Don and Ra agree that the 21 archetypes are the Universe and the Great Way as a consequence.

80.21 Questioner: Then I would guess that the twenty-first archetype would represent the contact with intelligent infinity. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct, although one may also see the reflection of this contact (as well) as the contact with intelligent energy, which is the Universe, or, as you have called it somewhat provincially, the World.

[flofrog]

Whoa, so interesting, Thank you to both of you …

[EccleezyAvicii]

When Ra says ‘This is correct, although…’, the ‘although’ appears to be serving as a correction or redirection, not confirming two aspects of the same archetype. This is supported by how Ra consistently uses ‘although’ throughout the material - typically to correct or redirect understanding, not to add complementary information.
This becomes clearer in 80.22, where Ra distinctly separates:

Contact with intelligent infinity (resulting in ‘unspeakable joy’)
Contact with intelligent energy (described as ‘the energy of the Logos’ that ‘heals, builds, removes, destroys, and transforms’)

Ra treats these as separate types of contact with distinct characteristics and outcomes, not as two aspects of the same archetype. The structure suggests these are distinct concepts rather than merged ones.

[Predicttor]

I really like the depth of your reasoning. I, like you, am studying this archetypal system and also want to understand it. Here is my thought:

In 80.21 Ra confirms that the 21st archetype (Great Way of the Spirit) represents contact with intelligent infinity + an important clarification - additionally reflects contact with intelligent energy. I see that in this and the next answer 80.22, Ra, although they separate these two concepts, still do not separate these concepts into two different archetypes. As we know, an archetype is a complex of concepts, and not a single concept, and therefore can contain several concepts at once. For example, the two concepts mentioned about contact with intelligent infinity and intelligent energy may well be part of one archetype, the Great Way of Spirit.

Looking at the Fool and the Universe, we can say that it is the Universe that fully reflects the 2 mentioned concepts of archetype 21: contact with intelligent infinity and contact with intelligent energy. The Universe Arcanum conveys both the joy of intelligent infinity (harp music) and the healing/destructive properties of the intelligent energy of Logos (man, animals, etc.).

And yet, contact with intelligent infinity and contact with intelligent energy is not a choice of polarity. What can I say, contact with intelligent infinity can even be accidental, when taking psychedelics. After contact with intelligent infinity or intelligent energy, a person will continue to “chop wood and carry water.” Life goes on, the choice is made at every moment of time. We still remain fools in this third density, we continue to walk with faith, now strong and unshakable after contact with intelligent infinity.

I also want to add that the archetype of Choice should reflect all three cycles of Mind, Body, and Spirit, and it’s okay if the archetype of Choice has something from the cycle of Spirit.

Please forgive me, a fool. Let’s come to the truth together.

[Vasilisa]

I tried to consider intelligent infinity from the point of view of Yogi Naropa, that is, from the point of view of the prana/mind connection. The Kabbalah referred to by Ra is a system of description for Western yoga in the so-called Western tradition. The prana/mind connection principle is also preserved here. The mind is not the mind we are used to, but rather awareness. If you look at the 1974 sessions, Hatonn and Oskal start with the theme of increasing “awareness.”

[EccleezyAvicii]

@Predicttor

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. You raise an interesting point about contact with intelligent infinity or intelligent energy not necessarily being a choice of polarity. However, from an archetypal perspective, this process operates differently than it does in an individual’s personal experience. Ra explains that the Significators of Mind (V), Body (XII), and Spirit (XIX) are the domains through which the archetypal (universal) mind chooses to express itself. While a personal contact with intelligent infinity might seem “accidental” (e.g., through psychedelics), at the archetypal level it reflects how consciousness itself decides to flow through each Significator.

In 88.16, Ra mentions that a deeper grasp of Arcanum Twenty-Two-The Choice-was “the one great breakthrough” they achieved after their third-density experience. This suggests that The Choice functions on a structural, evolutionary level, guiding not just personal decisions but the broader unfolding of consciousness. In 89.26, Ra reinforces this by stating that Archetype Twenty-Two “greatly helps” in clarifying the role of the Significator of Mind, Body, and Spirit, implying that The Choice is the means by which consciousness directs its fundamental energies into these three domains. Meanwhile, in 77.16, Ra points out that “the polarization or choosing of each mind/body/spirit is necessary” for harvestability. Although an individual might not consciously recognize this polarizing moment, the archetypal system continues to operate, shaping the collective and personal paths of evolution.

Moreover, in 89.26, Ra states that Archetype Twenty-Two is ‘greatly helpful in sharpening the basic view of the Significator of Mind, Body, and Spirit.’ The World card, with its representation of mind (harpist), body (harp), and spirit (animal wheel), seems perfectly suited for this role - especially in how it displays the hierarchical relationship between right-hand path (Angel/Lion) above the left-hand path (Eagle/Bull).

Placing the Significators alongside The World highlights how different areas of being are harmonized through “The Choice”, revealing how multiplicity and polarity (each with its own distinctive “melody”) coalesce into a unified design. From this broader perspective, even seemingly random or spontaneous contact with intelligent infinity is part of an overarching process in which consciousness continually chooses how it will manifest in mind, body, and spirit-a structural principle “relatively fixed and singular” at the core of the archetypal teachings.

[EccleezyAvicii]

Thank you for sharing your perspective on Yogi Naropa’s prana/mind connection in relation to Ra’s discussion of intelligent infinity. I really appreciate how you’ve highlighted that in both the Eastern (yogic) and Western (Kabbalistic) traditions, there’s an emphasis on awareness rather than “mind” in the sense of just mental chatter. This aligns well with Ra’s broader theme of expanding consciousness or “increasing awareness.”

One point I’d like to clarify is that prana in the yogic context primarily refers to the vital life force animating the individual—what flows through the body’s subtle channels and can be consciously worked with (e.g., through breathwork, meditation, Kundalini practices, etc.). Intelligent infinity, as described by Ra, is much more all-encompassing. It’s like the infinite ocean of potential from which everything arises, including prana itself. So while prana can be seen as a manifestation or a localized aspect of that universal energy, intelligent infinity transcends the individual and embraces all of creation.

Similarly, the Ra Material distinguishes between contact with “intelligent infinity” and working with “infinite energy.” The former often brings about profound unity and bliss—those “aha” moments of spiritual insight or epiphany. The latter is more about the dynamic, transformative force you can direct for healing, manifestation, and tangible change in the world. This maps well to the Eastern notion of prana as something we can actively cultivate and channel for healing or spiritual development.

Your point on “mind” being closer to “awareness” rather than merely discursive thinking is crucial. In the West, “mind” can sometimes default to mental chatter or intellectual processing. Eastern traditions (like Naropa’s teachings) emphasize that true mind is a deeper state of awareness—one that perceives and directs energy consciously. This is what yogic practitioners often strive to cultivate: a unification of body, breath (prana), and awareness so that transformation happens not just on a mental level but on a profoundly embodied level.

So, to validate your analogy: the prana/mind connection does offer a wonderful lens to see how an individual’s energy and awareness operate. When we talk about intelligent infinity, we’re touching something beyond the personal—like a vast field from which prana itself arises. In other words, prana is the local life force within the human experience, whereas intelligent infinity is the universal source of all potential. Both concepts highlight how deep awareness (or “real mind”) is key to experiencing and working with these energies, whether we look East to Naropa or West to the Kabbalistic tradition Ra referenced.

“Kapila did not conceive of Prakriti as some coarse matter, as many Western writers commonly assert. On the contrary, his idea of ‘Prakriti’ can be expressed by the word ‘Nature’ in the sense used by Bruno and other thinkers, i.e., it appeared to him as a subtle, etheric substance, more akin to the nature of energy than of matter—a substance finer and more rarefied than the world ether of modern Western science.”

• Yogi Ramacharaka

[EccleezyAvicii]

I used AI to organize my notes on the Four Animals in the World Card to provide more insight as well: (in the Law of One Tarot Card, the diagram is rotated and sorta mirrored from the modern way its presented I share here below)

1) The Two Orthogonal Axes

A) Left ↔ Right Axis:

Angel–Bull vs. Eagle–Lion

• Theme: Orientation of the Self
• Meaning: This axis highlights whether one’s conscious development heads toward a more individual or culturally/collectively oriented expression.
  • Angel–Bull (Left Column): Emphasis on consolidating a distinct self—the more personally grounded or self‐centric mode, whether spiritual (Angel) or bodily/primal (Bull).
  • Eagle–Lion (Right Column): Orientation toward the collective, cultural, or larger group—whether through the Eagle’s more universal insight or the Lion’s heroic/leadership role in society.

B) Top ↔ Bottom Axis:

Angel–Eagle vs. Bull–Lion

• Theme: Gradient of Awareness/Free Will
• Meaning: This axis shows the range from a more expanded, consciously aware perspective (top) to a more instinctual, immediate perspective (bottom).
  • Angel–Eagle (Top Row):
    • Angel (Man) = a personal, spiritually attuned awareness (one’s own higher calling).
    • Eagle = an impartial, honed insight that sees beyond personal concerns (a transpersonal vantage).
    • Together, they represent a broader light of consciousness—realizing one is part of a bigger cosmic interplay (“the world happening to you”).
  • Bull–Lion (Bottom Row):
    • Bull (Taurus) = earthy, grounded, bodily instincts.
    • Lion (Leo) = personal power, strongly identifying with one’s agency.
    • Both evoke a primal sense of “I act; the world responds”—“you happening to the world,” with less conscious reflection on broader cosmic forces.

In this two‐by‐two layout (four corners), each of the four creatures represents a distinct blend of (1) self‐orientation vs. group‐orientation, and (2) broad conscious insight vs. immediate, self‐centric perception.

---

2) Tying It Back to Ra’s Post–3rd‐Density Insight & the Tarot

1. Ra’s Breakthrough on The Choice:

• After 3rd density, Ra realized The Choice (Arcanum 22) is not just a simplistic fork (service to self vs. service to others). It is embedded in a multi‐layered cosmic design, symbolized here by the fourfold corners of The World/The Universe card. Each corner (Angel, Eagle, Bull, Lion) can reflect a different approach to identity, agency, and collective awareness—yet all funnel into that final, universal polarity decision.

2. Why This Fourfold Map Helps:

• In teaching early Egyptians through the Tarot, Ra could embed subtle pointers: that personal and cultural drives (Bull and Lion) do not exclude higher awareness (Angel and Eagle), and vice versa. Every quadrant eventually converges on the same culminating Choice of orientation.
• Seeing this “quadripolar” arrangement clarifies that 3rd‐density free will is both shaped by primal/cultural patterns and open to higher, transpersonal insight. The real question—The Choice—is how the seeker integrates these polarities into a deliberate path of service.

3. Integration of Axes:

• The Left–Right axis (self‐focus vs. group‐focus) and the Top–Bottom axis (expanded awareness vs. primal instinct) together illustrate that free will is a spectrum, not a simple yes/no. We each shift across these poles, eventually crystallizing a stable polarity (service‐to‐self or service‐to‐others) when we’re ready for harvest.

In sum, the four living creatures in The World card can be read as two intersecting axes of personal vs. collective orientation and higher vs. primal consciousness. By placing The Choice (Arcanum 22) at the heart of the Tarot, Ra gave early humanity a tool to see how these archetypal drives weave together, culminating in the pivotal decision that defines 3rd‐density graduation. This refined, “quadrapolar” understanding is part of the post–3rd‐density insight Ra gained—then infused into the Tarot teachings for those with eyes to see.

That is why in the middle of the wheel, there is the ‘Winged Fish’, so we can both soar into the skies, and dive into the depths.

[Vasilisa]

@EccleezyAvicii

Both concepts highlight how deep awareness (or “real mind”) is key to experiencing and working with these energies, whether we look East to Naropa or West to the Kabbalistic tradition Ra referenced.

I’m sorry that I can’t write a detailed answer. I have a language barrier. I agree with you that the Eastern and Western approaches work with the same concept. In Kabbalah, we just have a more artificial descriptive construction, as Ra said. And I agree with that. But personally, this design is closer to me than the eastern one. And Don based his questions on the Western tradition.

[Vasilisa]

@EccleezyAvicii

That is why in the middle of the wheel, there is the ‘Winged Fish’, so we can both soar into the skies, and dive into the depths.

You probably also know that Jung considered Fish in connection with Christianity and considered it a symbol of the Self? Evangelicals are symbolically designated by an Eagle, a Lion, a Bull, and a Man. The soul has four dimensions, just as the Kabbalistic universe has four dimensions.

[Jade]

“The one great breakthrough which was made after our work in third density was done was the proper emphasis given to the Arcanum Number Twenty-Two which we have called The Choice. In our own experience we were aware that such an unifying archetype existed but did not give that archetype the proper complex of concepts in order to most efficaciously use that archetype in order to promote our evolution.”

Ra clearly says that The Fool was discerned last, as Arcanum 22, to pair up with the Significators. The World card shows the subconscious mind playing the conscious mind and the two are, presumably, working in harmony. That’s why it’s the “final” card of the Tarot. I really want to make sense out of your ideas but I think this is one way that AI is limiting and confusing you. AI isn’t going to be able to understand the archetypes just from the Law of One books. I have to say as someone who has done a lot of study on the archetypes, I’ve found nothing useful in all of the text here, though I have tried.

The World is obviously a cosmically unifying card, but the Fool is about the journey into third density. What gifts is the fool carrying in his satchel? What risks are the fool taking? Ammit, the egyptian crocodile god who will eat your heart if you do not make harvest is waiting at the left hand, lower end of the path. Why is the moon eclipsing the Sun? These are concepts that would not belong in the Great Way of the Spirit.

The Fool pairs with the Significators very clearly. In the Mind, we see that the Fool has added far more accoutrements to aid his self expression. In the Body, we see the opposite - The Fool has less possessions, and is taking less action. In the Spirit Significator we see the Fool piercing the veil and reuniting the conscious and the subconscious mind. The Sun is no longer eclipsed, it is full. His only “accoutrements” are both parts of himself in harmony, potentiating. (flowers)

As far as the World card, as I mentioned, we see the feminine principle (subconscious mind) playing the well-tuned masculine principle (conscious mind). The four winds/elements are about being in mutable harmony. The instrument of the conscious mind is wearing the double hat, showing that he has balanced his mind and his body to be tuned and prepared. This is not how we begin our incarnations.

Here is another quote where Ra specifically talks about both the Choice and the Great Ways and never ever suggests that the Fool should be switched with The World.

[89.26] Questioner: All right, we’ll attempt to do that. Ra stated that a major breakthrough was made when proper emphasis was put on Arcanum Twenty-Two.* This didn’t happen until after Ra had completed third density. I assume from this that Ra, being polarized positively, probably had some of the same difficulty that occurred prior to the veil in that the negative polarity was not appreciated. That’s a guess. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. In one way it is precisely correct. Our harvest was overwhelmingly positive, and our appreciation of those which were negative was relatively uninformed.

However, we were intending to suggest that (in the use of the system known to you as the tarot for advancing the spiritual evolution of the self) a proper understanding, if we may use this misnomer, of Archetype Twenty-Two is greatly helpful in sharpening the basic view of the Significator of Mind, Body, and Spirit; and, further, throws into starker relief the Transformation and Great Way of Mind, Body, and Spirit complexes.

Here is another where Ra says the Fool archetype should be seen as a spiritual neophyte, aka not the Great Way of the Spirit. This is shown in the image by his primitive clothing. The Fool is unevolved, the two beings in the Great Way of Spirit have clearly “evolved” beyond their human form.

An example of this would be the observation of the questioner that the Fool is described in such and such a way. One great aspect of this archetype is the aspect of faith, the walking into space without regard for what is to come next. This is, of course, foolish but is part of the characteristic of the spiritual neophyte. That this aspect was not seen may be pondered by the questioner.

Also, one final correction: Your AI calls The Fool card “Faith”, but Ra actually says that the Star card is Faith.

[80.13]Questioner: Then, is this, from the point of view or with respect to the fifteenth archetype, somewhat of an excursion into the Matrix of the Spirit in this process? Does that make any sense?

Ra: I am Ra. The excursion of which you speak and the process of disassociation is most usually linked with that archetype you call Hope—which we would prefer to call Faith. This archetype is the Catalyst of the Spirit and, because of the illuminations of the Potentiator of the Spirit, will begin to cause these changes in the adept’s viewpoint.

[EccleezyAvicii]

As I said from the first post, My though is that:
22 = The Choice = The World
21 = The Way of Spirit = The Fool

There is nothing in the Ra materials the explicitly states The Choice IS the Fool, Ra states ‘The Choice’ is the word, they used for the very complex post third-density concept they discovered.

Ra does not , “clearly says that The Fool was discerned last, as Arcanum 22.” He says “The Choice” was.

Futhermore, when Ra corrects Don about the description of the Fool, He isn’t denigrating the spiritual neophyte as Don does, but rectifying the quality of the fool, Which he clearly states in passage we have both posted:

“One great aspect of this archetype (The Fool) is the aspect of faith, the walking into space without regard for what is to come next”.

This reinforces the ideal that Faith is associated with the Spirit, and as my initial post stated… reinforces the idea that the Fool is the Way of the Spirit (which doesn’t conflict with the Star being the Catalyst of the Spirit having an aspect of Faith).

Someone who is a spiritual neophyte has already started and progressed along the journeys of Mind and Body, ‘for in working with the mind we are working within one complex and have not yet attempted to penetrate intelligent infinity’.

The idea of a Doaist comes to mind as an analogous image to that of the fool. When Ra say’s, “An example of this would be the observation of the questioner that the Fool is described in such and such a way.” this is very similar to the Tao Te Ching’s idea that to most the ways of the Dao seem silly (like Don mistakenly framing the Fool as one ‘who seems to have strayed from unity’).

Part of the issue with the modern understanding of the Fool, is the idea that all cards have a ‘flipped’ negative connotation. The other is the etymology and concept of Fool as a Court Jester, a more accurate understanding of the character the card depicts is the Skomorokh (Скоморох)-- they were also important bearers of oral tradition. They played a significant role in disseminating news, folklore, and sometimes even dissenting ideas across vast territories. In literature and folklore, the Skomorokhi can symbolize the free spirit, non-conformity, and the voice of the common people. Their ability to travel and perform across regions made them symbols of freedom and wanderlust. Reducing the term to “fool” would miss out on these multifaceted dimensions of the concept. It’s somewhat analogous to calling a samurai just a “warrior” without recognizing the deep cultural, philosophical, and historical significance embedded in the term “samurai” within the Japanese context.

Your other points on symbolism on specific details of the world card are analogous concepts to some of the same concepts I shared.

[Jade]

Ra does not , “clearly says that The Fool was discerned last, as Arcanum 22.” He says “The Choice” was.

But Ra does say that Arcanum 21 is The World.

80.21 Questioner: Then I would guess that the twenty-first archetype would represent the contact with intelligent infinity. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct, although one may also see the reflection of this contact, as well, as the contact with intelligent energy which is the Universe or, as you have called it somewhat provincially, the World.

[Mirror]

Welcome back, @Jade .

[flofrog]

indeed, welcome back, Jade

and to make you smile Jade, here is a pouch I was given by a friend :

[EccleezyAvicii]

I’d kindly ask that you read my thoughts on this specific passage from the top, then engage with that.

Ra has a very methodical use of language and diction, when you see words like ‘although’, you can be sure they are making every effort to correct and provide clarity to thought distortions.

The only think Ra validates in that quote, is that “the twenty-first archetype represents the contact with intelligent infinity”.

Making contact doesn’t always imply response from the party contacted.

And Ra states the reflection (ie. The response) of the contact is the archetype we call The World. Elsewhere they constantly mention the distinction between the agency of third density actions versus those of higher density.

[Jade]

I assure you that I’ve read Ra enough to recognize their sometimes subtle use of language. I think you are wrong in extrapolating that they were somehow hinting that another card belonged in position 21. Ra corrected a lot of misconceptions about the archetypes and this critical difference in numbering would have likely been mentioned here, instead of a shifty “although…”

Context is helpful. 80.21 was the end of a session where Don had gone through all of the spirit cards sequentially, culminating with The World/The Universe. I think, if the order was wrong, Ra would have taken the opportunity here to say so, since their whole purpose was to remove the distortions that have fallen out from their original teachings, so that people could gain more understanding. If you read session 80 from start to finish, this theory beings to fall apart.

I have read your thoughts - though I struggle with AI speak - and none of it resonates with me. I commented because it was thoughtful, but I’m still missing the point entirely. If we start at the beginning, I fail to see at all how the title of the Fool represents contact with intelligent infinity more than The Universe. The Universe has both the conscious and subconscious mind together again, working in harmony, which is why it’s the last card of what Ra calls “the sevens”. The Fool is by himself, just like the first two Significators. In the Spirit we begin to reunite more fully with the feminine/subconscious mind, which is why she joins the masculine there.

The Fool/Choice is both 22 and 0, because we start the journey into 3rd density as a veiled Fool, and we then, after harvest, choose to wander back to third density, veiling ourselves, becoming a Fool again, walking into the apparent danger of the unknown. I believe Ra numbers it 22 because they understand that it’s the incarnations of the Wanderer who are really here to study the archetypes. The Rider Waite card shows the Fool walking towards a cliff of the unknown; the Egyptian card shows the Fool walking towards Ammit, who judges each individual upon death for their harvestability. Interestingly enough, Mr. Waite struggles with the order of these cards as well, but insists that the numbering is proper. But, he does place 0 (The Fool) before 21 (The World).

In the Fool, we see the figure walking, moving, on a journey full of danger. In the Great Way of the Spirit, we see the two figures at rest, playing, creating art as just a part of their being. This is the Great Way, the culmination of all of the exploration & choices made by the Fool. All of his journeying has been to become worthy enough to reunite with his feminine, subconscious self, so that he can be complete again, a full co-Creator. His changes throughout that journey are shown by mirroring him with the Significators.

@EccleezyAvicii

Elsewhere they constantly mention the distinction between the agency of third density actions versus those of higher density.

Where? And what does this even mean in the context of the tarot?

It’s cool that you have your own interpretation of the archetypes - that’s what we’re all supposed to do. But your original conclusion that everyone else has misinterpreted Ra has little proof but your own vibes about the symbolism. Just because Ra doesn’t explicitly say The Fool is The Choice or, according to you, doesn’t explicitly say that the World is 21 is not proof in itself. So, I disagree with the fundamental premise, though I’m always happy to chat with people who have thought about the archetypes.

[Mirror]

@Jade

It’s cool that you have your own interpretation of the archetypes - that’s what we’re all supposed to do.

Really?? Does Ra suggest that we theorize about archetypal energies, and do so before we have plumbed our own individual subconscious? I’d be interested to read that.

I thought the suggestion was to know the personal levels mind, conscious and subconscious and after that to explore the deeper levels of group mind such as the ethnic, national. planetary, and then the archetypal. Am I wrong about that–allowing for the fact that we all follow idiosyncratic pathways? Is the general idea correct?

Or to put it the other around, what is the relationship between understanding the personal subconscious and actually working with (not theorizing about) archetypal energies?

[soup]

@Mirror

Or to put it the other around, what is the relationship between understanding the personal subconscious and actually working with (not theorizing about) archetypal energies?

It might be experiential - formulating understanding
through personal expression as an act of infinite
creation, a creation of Law of One artifacts as an
acceptance of one infinite creator.

I was contemplating some idea today, The Let Them
Theory by Mel Robbins. At the crux seems some
paradox of relinquishing control to gain control;
or in other words controlling the uncontrollable as
having some degree of futility; so letting go of any
attachment as a path to greater freedom of choice.

For example, by allowing others to choose how they
create may enable one more freedom of choice.
It’s a bit about accepting oneself, accepting reality
as-is, i.e. one infinite creator. Let them, and let me.