The Tarot mix-up with The Choice

Strictly Law of One
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Respectfully, I disagree. To me this sounds like killing the butterfly, piercing it with a pin and adding it to a collection. ( And I’m not trying to swat at you personally, rather, draw attention to the larger pattern of this sort of action.) Instead, by dint of self knowledge one may learn to dance with these deeply subconscious flows of energy and see what they have to share.

The Confederation groups say that this self knowledge begins in silence, not in chatter, in listening, not in talking. Of course, doing both more balanced than doing only one of those, but I am wondering, where are the conversations about silence and self discovery? Why is there so much emphasis on what you (or I) think and not on the deepening of our being?

Isn’t the deeper experience of being what draws us here? Or maybe I’m confused?

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You’re right that a true student of the archetypes must have first done the slow work of understanding and untangling their own mind complex. It’s not about looking at the cards and telling stories about the pictures. It’s about using the symbolism to create a bridge to the subconscious mind so that you can begin to truly understand and work with these energies. Eventually, the archetypes become useful for one who is already “on the path”.

When I said “it’s what we’re all supposed to do” I mean those who actually put in work to ponder and study the archetypes, not just everyone. Some relevant quotes:

[76.9] Questioner: Is there, in Ra’s opinion, any present-day value for the reuse of the tarot as an aid in the evolutionary process?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall repeat information.* It is appropriate to study one form of constructed and organized distortion of the archetypical mind in depth in order to arrive at the position of being able to become and to experience archetypes at will. You have three basic choices:

You may choose astrology—the twelve signs, as you call these portions of your planet’s energy web, and what has been called the ten planets.

You may choose the tarot with its twenty-two so-called Major Arcana.

You may choose the study of the so-called Tree of Life with its ten Sephiroth and the twenty-two relationships between the stations.

It is well to investigate each discipline, not as a dilettant, but as one who seeks the touchstone, one who wishes to feel the pull of the magnet. One of these studies will be more attractive to the seeker. Let the seeker then investigate the archetypical mind using, basically, one of these three disciplines.

After a period of study, the discipline mastered sufficiently, the seeker may then complete the more important step: that is, the moving beyond the written in order to express in an unique fashion its understanding, if you may again pardon the noun, of the archetypical mind.

[77.23] Questioner: In that case, it seems that a thorough knowledge of the precise nature of these philosophical foundations would be of primary importance to the study of evolution of mind, body, and spirit, and I would like to carefully go through each of the basic twenty-one, starting with the mind, if this is agreeable with Ra.

Ra: I am Ra. This is agreeable with two requests which must be made.

Firstly, that an attempt be made to state the student’s grasp of each archetype. We may then comment. We cannot teach/learn to the extent of learn/teaching.

Secondly, we request that it be constantly kept before the mind, as the candle before the eye, that each mind/body/spirit complex shall, and should, and indeed must perceive each archetype, if you use this convenient term, in its own way.

Therefore, you may see that precision is not the goal; rather, quality of general concept complex perception is the goal.

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Thank you.

What does this part mean?

What might that look like?

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I recently made the analogy of one playing a very elaborate game of “The Twelve Days of Christmas” with the self.

So, the whole point of the veil was to separate the mind from the body, but also the conscious mind from the subconscious mind. This is then shown in the archetypes as two lovers who are seeking to reunite and become one. The masculine, conscious mind, must develop its will within the proper parameters to be able to manifest the subconscious mind, the feminine, the metaphysical/unseen portions of reality.

So, the first step in spiritual seeking in re-establishing the relationship you once had with your now scorned beloved. She has been hiding just out of sight, but you’ve spent so long not even looking for her. So you have to prove yourself worthy to receive her again, by putting in the time towards daily meditation: sitting down and listening to her.

Now, she usually doesn’t “say” much, because the subconscious mind is not of words. She existed before words. She’s of concepts, of feelings, of energy transfers. This is where the pictures come in. The tarot cards are essentially elaborate memes with many, many layers of meaning. The symbols are all things from our normal daily lives - birds and cats, stars and moon, flowers, trees, temples. And these things all have personal meaning to us, and they have meaning within each card, and they have meaning in the ways that the cards interrelate with each other.

So, once you are truly ready to study the tarot, you begin the (22) Days of Christmas. You sit down in meditation, and you say, “My dear maiden, today I have brought for you an ibis in a checkered cage…” and sit with her in silence, with that symbol, listening. Again, words aren’t likely to be returned, but feelings and emotions, perhaps. What’s really happening though is we are building a bridge, laying a foundation to reconnect with that severed part of ourselves. And that part has a lot to tell us, once we learn the language.

I, personally, get a lot of meaning of the symbolism of the cards through the songs I listen to. Sometimes the lyrics hit just right and it’s a revelation. Revelations can come from anywhere - once you’ve laid the foundation with patient listening.

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Thank you very much for the substantive reply. I would offer some points of interest, not seeking to quibble, but to refine the discussion.

  1. Dividing the conscious from the subconscious mind was a MEANS of creating a veil, but it was not the purpose. As I read it, the purpose was to intensify the need for seeking by intensifying the suffering due to separation from (rather than the communion with) Divinity. That detail aside, we agree that the goal on our end is unity of self that enables us, eventually, to work with 4D light sufficiently to allow us to move into 4D.
  2. You say, “The conscious mind must develop its will…to be able to manifest the subconscious mind.” Yet, also, the experience of the conscious mind is heavily influenced at any moment by the biases carried by the subconscious elf. These two are already deeply intertwined “as one” prior to any thoughts of spiritual work. Where does that fit in here?
  3. This part is purely a personal preference. I think of these sorts of things in terms of the ascending universal energies reaching a hand up “ladder of conscious awareness,” if you will, hoping to meet another hand extending downward, coming from Impersonal Levels of Self in response to the quality of the love in the upward reaching. But this occurs after much preliminary work of unification of self.

Footnote: Why is part of self impersonal? These are areas of self no longer involved in 3D living and seeking which sometimes come into play here to assist us on our way to the extent that we are able to seek their help. I imagine “there’s a card for that.”

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  1. I feel this is indeed just quibbling with my choice of words. The veil created separation between the conscious and subconscious, and the body fell to the subconscious. This created confusion. It took many refinements on the veil to get where we are now, because it hasn’t always been a part of Creation. Now our job is to pierce the veil to find what has been removed from our conscious awareness.

  2. The subconscious does have biases, these are held in the significator. I think what you are grokking around is the Transformation of the Mind. The deep mind calls to the conscious mind, but that calling is not refined until one begins to polarize.

  3. What you are talking about is the “upward spiraling”, masculine, snake driven energy that reaches upwards, and the “downward, inward reaching”, female, vulture energy that reaches down. These are the symbols used in Egypt for the energies you describe. Again we see the masculine reaching for the feminine.

I’m not sure what you are talking about impersonal parts of the self. Like guides? I don’t actually think there is a card specifically about outer guidance. The cards are really more about how to work with the self, and to reach into the self for the guidance from the Higher Self. Everything unseen resides in the High Priestess card, the purely subconscious mind.

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Yeah, sort of. I just wanted to stress a different dimension (so to speak) of this, and wasn’t actually sure at that point what that was (see below), I just knew it had to do seeking of the lower for the upper.

Right. What I realized later was that I was trying to make a distinction between the segment of conscious and subconscious mind becoming whole and the opening up of the spirit complex as one learns “to do work in spirit,” as I would term it. Clearly, the mind must “mate with itself,” to put it in an odd fashion, before the spirit complex can work in a balanced way to shuttle spirit into one’s daily rounds or earthly activities. I think this is an interesting topic to explore, the overlap and distinctions between the interplay of the conscious and subconscious self compared with the blossoming of the spirit complex. You might call them two parallel processes of maturation.

This, again, is part of the maturation of the spirit complex–I would aver. Here’s an interesting (and kinda funny) Latwii comment that touches on this in a different context.

Perhaps you have thought about why you are in incarnation at this particular time under these particular circumstances. When the circumstances are difficult, that concern, that query, that, “Why me? Why now? Why this?” becomes a threnody of unspent tears, restrained grief, quiet sorrow. And it is all too easy to see things from within the body which is within the other and far, so very far, from the light whence all sense they have come and for which each pilgrim yearns.

Yet, let us examine this stance and see if we really think this is the situation. It is the opinion of Latwii that the situation is other. It is our understanding that the one infinite Creator and all those helping forces, which you call by name such as guardian angel, higher self, spirit guides, and teachers, have conspired with you in your heart of hearts, e’er [sic] incarnation ever began, gazing at the plan of the one infinite Creator for harmonizing all things, balancing all things, offering the maximum opportunity for service, for learning, for growth.

It is our understanding that out of this creative collaboration of the personal self, the impersonal self, and that great non-personal self, which is the Christed deity of love, have offered an incarnational plan which is without reference to what might have been or what should have been, the precise plan for maximizing the opportunities of the incarnation for learning, for growth, and for service. Thusly, when the question is asked, “Why this? Why now? Why me?” the question by itself, by its very nature, blocks the flow of the harmonious unfoldment of the self’s plan which is the Creator’s plan as it concerns your precious, much adored and eternal self.

With this said, it may be seen that, in our opinion, the correct question to ask in the circumstance of seeming disharmony is along the lines of a love letter to the self:

Dearly beloved, sweet confused Self,“ you should say to yourself. “It must be so that this circumstance is blessed, for there is nothing in all creation that is not blessed. Therefore, Creator/Creation, show me, speak to me, let me know where is the love, where the learning, and where the service in this situation which I know beyond all appearance to be good.

Signed, Your puzzled surface mind

it is my experience that the mind reaches for deeper mind, while the reaching of the spirit complex is for a level of connection described above. Maybe there’s a card for that?

So it appears to the mind, which is of the body and of the planetary experience. What is subconscious to us has so called “geography and geometry.” It is not all personal just because it is beneath (sub) the level of conscious awareness of the human sort. Or so it seems to me in my imagination complex. (haha)

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Hey Jade, welcome back again, and thanks for diving so deeply into this with me! I really appreciate your thoughtful critique—it’s pushing me to refine my perspective and clarify where I’m coming from. I’ll respond to your points step-by-step, keeping it rooted in Ra’s words and the journey we’re all on to understand these archetypes. My goal isn’t to prove everyone else wrong but to explore a potential shift in how we align Arcanum 21 and 22 with traditional tarot cards like The Fool and The World, based on Ra’s nuanced language and my own reflections.

On Ra’s Subtle Language and Session 80.21

You’re absolutely right that Ra’s use of language is subtle, and I agree they’d likely correct a major distortion like a numbering error if it was critical to their intent. In Session 80.21, when Don guesses Arcanum 21 represents “contact with intelligent infinity” and Ra says, “This is correct, although one may also see the reflection of this contact… as the contact with intelligent energy which is the Universe or… the World,” I don’t read this as Ra hinting at a different card for 21. Instead, I see the “although” as opening a door to a dual nature within Arcanum 21—contact with intelligent infinity (the infinite potential) and its reflection as intelligent energy (the manifested universe). My theory doesn’t swap the numbering outright but suggests that the qualities Ra ascribes to 21 and 22 might map differently to The Fool and The World than tradition assumes.

You mentioned Session 80’s context, where Don walks through the Spirit archetypes sequentially, ending with 21 as The World. I’ve reread it, and while it’s true Don’s progression suggests a traditional order, Ra doesn’t explicitly lock 21 to The World as a title—they describe its function (contact with intelligent infinity/energy). This flexibility is what sparked my thesis: could the pre-“although” focus on intelligent infinity (unmanifested, faith-driven) align more with The Fool, while the post-“although” intelligent energy (manifested, integrative) fits The Choice and The World?

The Fool, Faith, and Arcanum 21

You argue that The Fool as Arcanum 22 (The Choice) fits because it’s the spiritual neophyte stepping into third density, facing risks (e.g., Ammit, the cliff), and evolving through the Significators. I see that clearly—Session 67.30 ties The Fool to faith and the neophyte’s leap, and 88.16 marks The Choice as Ra’s breakthrough, pairing it with the Significators. But here’s where I diverge: the faith Ra describes in 67.30 (“walking into space without regard for what is to come”) and links to Arcanum 13 (Faith/Hope, Session 80.13) feels like the prelude to Arcanum 21’s “contact with intelligent infinity.” In 80.20, Ra says this contact requires “consciousness disciplined by will and faith”—a leap into the infinite unknown, producing “unspeakable joy” (80.22). That resonates more with The Fool’s blind trust than The Choice’s deliberate polarity decision.

The Fool’s journey begins in third density, sure, but its essence—faith-driven, unburdened by structure—mirrors the adept’s leap beyond illusion into intelligent infinity. The Significators show evolution (Mind adding tools, Body shedding them, Spirit piercing the veil), but I’d argue Arcanum 21 could be that piercing moment, not 22. The Great Way of the Spirit’s serene figures might reflect the result of that contact, but the act itself feels Fool-like.

The World, Intelligent Energy, and Arcanum 22

You describe The World as the conscious and subconscious in harmony, the “final card of the sevens,” with its four elements and double-hatted figure showing balance. I totally get why that feels like Arcanum 21 to you—it’s cosmic unity, a culmination. But Ra’s post-“although” shift to intelligent energy in 80.21 (“the energy of the Logos” that “heals, builds, removes, destroys, and transforms,” 80.22) strikes me as more active and decisive, aligning with The Choice (88.16, 89.26). The World’s fixed symbolism—man, bull, bird, lion, winged fish—mirrors these Logos qualities and the integrative role Ra gives The Choice, “sharpening” the Significators and highlighting Transformation and Great Way (89.26). It’s less about passive harmony and more about the adept choosing to wield that unity within the universe.

Ra calls The Choice a “unifying archetype” (88.16) and ties it to the Logos’ plan (77.12, not in your excerpts but referenced in my post). That dynamism fits The World’s comprehensive structure over The Fool’s fluid openness. The Choice isn’t just third-density entry—it’s the axis of evolution (76.16), a moment of agency that The World’s symbolism (e.g., the three-string harp as mind/body/spirit) could embody.

Third Density vs. Higher Densities

You asked about my line on “the distinction between the agency of third density actions versus those of higher density.” I was vague—my bad! I meant Ra’s frequent emphasis on third density as the density of choice (76.15-16) versus higher densities refining that choice (e.g., 77.16). The Fool feels like third density’s naive entry, while The Choice (as The World) reflects the adept’s higher-density-aware decision, post-contact with infinity/energy. In tarot context, it’s about The Fool initiating the journey and The World/The Choice manifesting its outcome.

Clarifying My Stance

I’m not saying Ra misnumbered the archetypes or that traditional interpretations are wrong for everyone—Ra’s system is fluid, meant for personal insight (88.23). My vibe is that The Fool’s faith aligns with Arcanum 21’s intelligent infinity contact, while The World’s integrative Logos energy fits Arcanum 22’s Choice. Session 80.21’s “although” hints at this duality within 21, but 22’s role as the “great breakthrough” (88.16) feels more World-like to me. The Fool-to-Significators evolution could peak at 21, with 22 as the decisive step beyond.

I’d love to hear how you see The World’s harmony differing from The Choice’s agency, or if you think 21’s “unspeakable joy” fits The Fool’s journey over The World’s completion. This is all about wrestling with Ra’s words together—your pushback is sharpening my view, and I’m grateful for it!

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Hey all, wow—this discussion has taken some fascinating turns! I’ve been soaking in the recent posts from Mirror, Jade, and soup, and I see some confusion emerging around how Ra frames the archetypes, their relationship to the subconscious, and the balance between theorizing and experiencing. I’ll try to clarify these from Ra’s perspective, sticking to their words, and invite your thoughts to keep this rolling. My earlier ideas aside, let’s focus on where we’re at now.

Mirror’s Concern: Theorizing vs. Experiencing Archetypes

Mirror, your question about whether Ra suggests theorizing about archetypes before plumbing the subconscious hits a key tension. Ra’s clear on this—they don’t want us just spinning tales. In Session 76.9, they say:

“It is appropriate to study one form of constructed and organized distortion of the archetypical mind in depth in order to arrive at the position of being able to become and to experience archetypes at will.”

But there’s a catch in 77.23:

“Precision is not the goal; rather, quality of general concept complex perception is the goal… Each mind/body/spirit complex shall, and should, and indeed must perceive each archetype… in its own way.”

Ra’s not after rigid definitions—they want us to experience the archetypes, not just talk about them. This starts with self-knowledge, bridging conscious and subconscious minds (88.17: archetypes inform the mind via the subconscious). Your “silence over chatter” point (February 19) nails it—Ra ties this to meditation (76.9’s “touchstone,” 88.24’s intuitive mastery). Theorizing is a stepping stone, but the real work is silent, personal, and experiential, aligning with 88.23’s “more profoundly realized present moment.”

Your follow-up on mind unification vs. spirit’s blossoming is spot-on too. Ra separates these—mind work precedes spirit’s shuttle to intelligent infinity (80.14: “the spirit is a shuttle”). In 80.9, they say adeptship builds on mind and body before spirit can engage dependably. The Latwii quote you shared about the “impersonal self” collaborating pre-incarnation fits—Ra hints at this in 67.28 with the higher self aiding the adept, but it’s not a specific archetype. It’s more the spirit complex maturing, reaching beyond personal mind to the Creator.

Jade’s Process: Bridging the Subconscious

Jade, your “Twelve Days of Christmas” analogy for using tarot symbols to reconnect with the subconscious is a beautiful reflection of Ra’s method. In 88.24, Ra describes their Egyptian teaching: showing images (one, eight, fifteen), then asking, “What do you feel this represents?” It’s about listening, not dictating—exactly your point about meditation as sitting with the maiden. Ra backs this in 89.19: the adept becomes the archetype after study, not just theorizes it. Your focus on the veil separating conscious and subconscious echoes 76.16: third density’s choice requires this illusion, and archetypes help us pierce it.

On your “impersonal self” confusion, Ra doesn’t use that term, but 67.28’s Adept contacting intelligent infinity via the higher self might be close. The High Priestess as subconscious (your pick) fits 88.17’s flow from deep mind to conscious awareness, though Ra doesn’t map guides explicitly—archetypes are self-focused tools (89.18).

Soup’s Experiential Freedom

Soup, your “Let Them Theory” take—letting go to gain freedom—resonates with Ra’s view of free will. In 67.11, they say:

“In the case of those with whom you are not in resonance, you wish them love, light, peace, joy, and bid them well.”

This acceptance mirrors the adept’s disassociation from illusion (80.12) to contact infinity. For archetypes, it suggests experiencing their “melody” (88.17) without forcing control—letting the Creator’s distortion unfold. Your “act of infinite creation” idea aligns with 76.9’s push beyond study to unique expression, though Ra stresses this follows disciplined groundwork.

Clearing Confusion

I sense some mix-up around whether archetypes are intellectual toys or practical tools. Ra’s firm: they’re for adepts who’ve balanced mind and body (80.9), not casual speculation. Mirror’s right—self-knowledge comes first, via silence and meditation (88.24). Jade’s process (February 20) shows how—symbols bridge the veil, but only with intent. Soup’s freedom angle fits Ra’s non-dogmatic stance (88.24: “we have no dogma to offer”). The confusion might stem from jumping to theory without Ra’s prerequisite depth (89.44: controlled use polarizes subtly). Ra’s all about us finding our unique lens (77.23). Let’s keep exploring—your insights are lighting the way!

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Hey friend, I’m gonna be honest, it’s almost impossible for me to engage in good faith with AI generated posts that have an overwhelming amount of (repeating) parenthetical citations. It would be incredibly helpful if you edited your AI responses down and actually checked the quotations and directly cited the more relevant/important ones. That being said, I generally do not really resonate at all with AI interpretations of the Ra material, I don’t find it interesting or insightful at all, personally, as someone who has studied the books with my own mind for 12 years. Having a holistic understanding of the books instead of asking for AI citations will serve you much better in studying the archetypes.

I’m actually not sure if you even read my post yourself or if you just fed it to your AI. Your reply addresses and asks questions about points I had already made.

I will address four more brief points:

First, I think the World is “unspeakable joy” because Ra talks often about how sexual energy exchange in the higher chakras with a mated partner is how we can experience the natural joyful state of the creator via orgasm. Hence, the bisexual entities who have become one in the World card. Here Ra describes sexual fusion as “a constant orgasm of joy and delight in the other’s beingness”:

[32.10] Questioner: Can you expand a little bit on what you mean by “complete fusion nature?”

Ra: I am Ra. The entire creation is of the One Creator. Thus the division of sexual activity into simply that of the bodily complex is an artificial division, all things thusly being seen as sexual equally—the mind, the body, and the spirit—all of which are part of the polarity of the entity. Thus sexual fusion may be seen, with or without what you may call sexual intercourse, to be the complete melding of the mind, the body, and the spirit in what feels to be a constant orgasm, shall we say, of joy and delight each in the other’s beingness.

Another:

[49.2] Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim first. He says:

“For the past nine years I have had what I call frontal lobes experiences in the pre-consciousness state of sleep just before I wake up in the morning. They are a combination of pleasure and pressure which begins in the frontal lobes and spreads in pulses through the whole brain and feels like an orgasm in my brain. I have had over 200 of these experiences, and often they are accompanied by visions and voices which seldom make much sense to me. What is the source of these frontal lobes experiences?”

Ra: I am Ra. We scan the questioner and find some pertinent information already available which regards the physiological disposition of this particular part of the brain. The experiences described and experienced are those distillations which may be experienced after a concentration of effort upon the opening of the gateway, or indigo, mind complex so that experience of a sacramental, or violet, ray may occur. These experiences are the beginnings of that which—as the body, the mind, and the spirit become integrated at the gateway, or indigo, level—may then yield not only the experience of joy but the comprehension of intelligent infinity which accompanies it. Thus the body complex orgasm and mind complex orgasm, becoming integrated, may then set forth the proper gateway for the spiritual complex integration and its use as a shuttle for the sacrament of the fully experienced presence of the One Infinite Creator. Thus there is much to which the questioner may look forward.

Secondly, I only originally came in because you actually presented the idea that there had been a “mistake”, everyone else having misinterpreted Ra, which resonated with me approximately 0%. If you had presented this as your own personal interpretation in spite of the common agreed upon order of the cards, I probably wouldn’t have responded at all. Thanks for walking that back a bit.

Third, I found this quote where Don explicitly asks Ra about the order of the cards, which makes me believe that this is where Ra would have corrected such an egregious error.

[88.16] Questioner: I will also assume, which may not be correct, that the present list that I have of the twenty-two names of the tarot cards are not in exact agreement with Ra’s original generation of the tarot. Could you describe the original tarot, first telling me if there were twenty-two archetypes? That must have been the same. And if they were the same as the list that I have read you in a previous session, or if there were differences?

Fourth, it would probably serve you well to think about why Ra corrects the title from “The World” to “The Universe” in a card that is related to contact with intelligent infinity, and the end of the cycle.

Good luck with your study of the archetypal mind!

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For myself, this angle of approach swings us right back to examining whether we are using information in order to more fully join in the dance, or whether we are merely describing dancing as non-participants.

I would say there might be a balance point to this. For example, AI could be used to pose questions and offer citations to explore as one works out their own answers. I expect this manner of gathering and sharing one’s own response to the material would be more engaging in the context of a group discussion.

For the record, I like the AI summary above and will continue to like them in the future, as long as they support my ideas and make me look smart (and humble, of course). I have my own standards, you see.

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We know Ra validates Arcana I with the Magician and the Matrix of the Mind (91.24).
And from,

You may choose the tarot with its twenty-two so-called Major Arcana. You may choose the study of the so-called Tree of Life with its ten Sephiroth and the twenty-two relationships between the stations.

The twenty-two relationships between the stations corresponds to the Hebrew Alphabet. If we take a small leap of faith, we can say the 22 letters correspond also to the 22 Arcana.

If Arcana I is the Magician, and the first Hebrew letter is Aleph, then we are already working with a system quite distinct from those which often correspond The Fool to Arcana 0 and the letter Aleph.