Message From Jesus

It reminds me of The Simpson episode, “Missionary Impossible”, where Homer become a missionary to some remote island and meet the natives.
Natives: Why are you building a chapel?
Homer: Because you’re all terrible sinners!
Natives: Since when?
Homer: Since I got here!!

I did wondered how Catholic Church will act when human finally found a sentient being on different planet / solar system. Will they send missionary to the planet and ‘save them from their sins’?

Winter Soltice, traditionally celebrated by ancient romans.
From:
Roman Solstice Celebrations | History and Archaeology Online.

25thDecember became the date of the Brumalia; the festival celebrated by the Romans as the mark of midwinter- and the end of Saturnalia.

Hmmm… there’s something about “Saturn” and coincidently Ra did said that the “Confederation Of Planet” is based on/around the planet Saturn?

Having said that; Jesus cannot be born on winter, as the flocks are still on the field. The latest might be around Autumn.
Having also said that; celebrating “Birth Date” is not within the tradition of Jews/Judaism. Jesus birth date were never celebrated, even by Jesus nor his own family.

It’s a common act by Catholic Church to transform “Pagan’s Holiday” into “Christian’s holiday” and giving it a new meaning to commemorate the day. Winter Soltice → Jesus Birthday, Halloween (Samhain) → All Saint’s Day.

I don’t think so. In the beginning it will be in deep crisis and many people will leave the Church. What is left will try to adapt and will split into very orthodox (minority) and the rest that will mix altogether with other extraplanetary religions.

Saturn was one of the Roman gods, where we get “Saturday / Saturnday” from.

It’s easier (and more natural) to view people’s reactions to Jesus at the time through a human lens (or psychological lens), rather than a theological lens, as people do nowadays, simply because of how the story is introduced / told to people today.

You’ve heard the saying “no prophet is accepted in his hometown”.

Look what happened when Jesus returned to Nazareth, his hometown. The story went something like this: “isn’t it that snotty nosed kid who used to live down the road? Joseph’s boy, James’ brother, and now he calls himself the messiah… what nonsense! Do you remember he used to be such an obnoxious little brat?”

I’m using some creative licence here of course, but the snickering and sneering, mockery and disbelief are all too human.

The same would happen today if someone were to announce themselves as…let’s see…“second coming of Christ” or “the Jewish messiah”…something expected by the populace. Or they don’t even have to make such a bold claim as that, reactions will vary from one end of the spectrum to the other, depending on people’s biases and preconceived notions.

A similar tale is told in zen literature:

Imagine Sadhguru asking everyone to recognize himself as a “Yogi” or Lionel Messi announcing himself as a “World Class Football Player”. To me it’s weird… a ‘label’ usually bestowed upon a person by others, the person usually doesn’t really care what kind of ‘label’ that others put on him/her.

Here are my three treasures. Guard and keep them! The first is pity; the second, frugality; the third, refusal to be ‘foremost of all things under heaven’.
Tao The Ching: 67

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When the messenger becomes the object of worship, then things have gone very…very…very…awry…

And this is where Christianity is today, unfortunately.

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So just to get back to another “avenue of thought” we explored in this conversation. I touched upon this “handicap” Westerners seem to have when encountering Eastern philosophies - the difference between the Eastern mind and the Western mind.

Alan Watts does a great job of shedding light on this “enigma” in his book The Way of Zen.

It’s not that Westerners have to “learn” something, it’s that we have to “unlearn” something…so deeply embedded in our psyche we don’t even realise it’s there.

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I agree. To my opinion it’s first of all counting (numbers, money etc.) everything. Some people think if they didn’t reach something it’s just because they didn’t count well enough. On the one hand it helps, but on another it gives illusion of control that never cannot be reached. Looking the “Map Of Consciousness” from @Quid I paid attention to the Energetic Log column today. I saw it yesterday, but to me it was minor question. So I’ve found someone created Consciousness Calibrations Database and tried to calibrate Law of One also.

Ra were saying about those who seek with measure and pen, but such counting as this database is rather like self-deception thinking if you imitate form you will reach the content, and the dog will be trying by the tail. I think that undoubtedly it’s important part, but not absolute one.

There is a ‘psychic side effect’ of putting someone or something on a pedestal.

When one see that there is something ‘superior’ (something or someone that he/she put on pedestal as object of worship). This can cause a sense of ‘inferiority’ which trigger the need of ‘being superior’ to balanced it out.

In this particular case, ‘worshippers’ see Jesus as something superior than themselves, this cause a sense of ‘self inferiority’ which trigger the need of seeing themselves as superior compared to others (#pagans, #non christians).
Thus with such background / mindset, it’s understandable why they put forth a conception like:

  1. The truest believer (themselves)
  2. The original / truest church (their church)
  3. The one true religion (their religion)
  4. The chosen people (their people)

That’s among the reason why I never or have stopped prefixing “Lord” when referring to Jesus. If I need to use a prefix I prefer to use “Mr Jesus” or “Brother Jesus” instead.
By not seeing Jesus as more superior than me I will then have no need of seeing me as more superior compared to others in order to ‘balanced it out’.

This of course is not limited to ‘figure’ such as Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna etc It can also be something as abstract as “nationality” or “social identity” such as race.
For example:
After WWI the Germans (or at least some of them) felt humiliated and see themselves as “inferior” in comparation to the French, British who won the WWI. This act triggered the need to see themselves (labeled as Aryan) as superior race compared to others. (The Jews, Negro, The Romani / Gypsies, The Slavs etc…) This view then act as justification of cleansing any ‘contamination from lesser races’ within the German State.

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In USSR all were equal and they didn’t allow anyone to be not equal. That’s why it was the superior group of people. :slightly_smiling_face:

Nah, it’s by ‘concept’ / ‘propaganda’ only with similar objective of why the Roman Empire created the “true universal religion” in the first place (to control the common people)
The Communist Party elite member is much superior in comparation to common people.
And of course the communist (our people) is superior than the capitalist/bourgeoisie (their people).

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It would be a big mistake to take “The Golden Age of Zen” out of its time. It has nothing to do with current day China under the CCP (Chinese Communist Party).

The same way the Upanishads has nothing to do with how Narendra Modi is “weaponising” Hinduism in India at the moment. (if you’ve been following that).

In fact, it’s a mistake period to mix philosophical movements and geopolitics.

You don’t hear about Emperor Wu (who?) today, and yet you hear about Zen…

Actually I was referring to Oleksii’s remarks about USSR, and did not mentioned Zen or PRC. But now I’m curious why you link it up with Zen and PRC? :slight_smile:

As mentioned on above thread, label is quite useless, and the so-called “Golden Age of Zen” never exist. If it does exist then it will exist as part of propaganda to create a religion labeled “Zen”, usually promoted by some form of political authority. With goal similar to what we’ve discussed above (controlling and rallying the masses).
The same with phenomenon of “Hinduism” label as mentioned.

Putting something / someone on a pedestal usually yield the same result and driven by the same purpose.

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Because it’s impossible to think of China then, and not think of China now. (and you did mention the Communist Party).

Have you read the Tao Te Ching (in full)? Laozi was often commenting on the politics of the day…he lived in the “Warring States Period” of China, as did Zhuangzi…so they mention politics/war often.

That was Laozi’s irritation with Confucious by the way, they were comtemporaries. Laozi felt Confucious were “leading people astray”.

These two philosophies are still prominent in China today (Daoism & Confusionism)…but they’re not really competing, each has…if you will…their place…just different spheres…Daoism = mysticism…confusionism = ethics, morality, statecraft (basically, how are we all going to get along peacefully?) Confusionism would be “the tail trying to wag the dog”…and Daoism the other way around.

You are not making a great deal of sense at the moment. If you are unfamiliar with the figure of speech “golden age”…it simply means “when it was at its peak” (roughly 600-900 A.D.) The Roman empire had a “golden age”…Greek philosophy had a “golden age”, Zoroastrianism had a “golden age”, as did Egypt.

If the political elite of the day in China saw it (Buddhism & Zen) as something beneficial, rather than threatening, they would not have attempted to destroy it (as I mentioned earlier in the conversation).

I would be the first person to advise against “organising something”, or “rallying the masses” as you refer to it, which is why I always mention Jiddu Krishnamurti’s Truth is a Pathless Land speech. :slight_smile:

And I’m not sure what you mean by “Hinduism label / phenomenon”… frankly I feel we have lost each other…

As for so-called “labels”, without them, we won’t be able to communicate…as I also mentioned earlier in the conversation. I simply mentioned the danger of “labels” earlier in this conversation, because of its psychological power in people’s minds, you use them in order to communicate, but then you drop them in your own mind, in order for them to lose their power.

When you label someone, you desensitise yourself to their humanity, or you reduce / elevate them (usually reduce). It can be political affiliation, idealogy, race, religion, status, etc. Our society has no shortage of labels. It’s almost as if you don’t “see” someone anymore once you’ve labeled them. (i.e. CEO vs garbage collector). Our minds do this naturally, we categorise, but paying attention to the “unconscious” workings of the mind, pays dividends.

But I feel this has also missed its mark…

Yes conscious mind a.k.a brain, naturally does this, it’s like a knife, dissecting thing in two; “IS” and “IS NOT”, in order to recognize the differences, and then labeled each accordingly.

Now about ‘label’…
The label “Buddha”, sterm from two words, “Buddhi” which means “intellect” and “Dha” which means “Above”. Thus the label actually have meaning, it means “Above Intellect”.

The so called “Golden Age of Buddhism”, is refering to a period when there exist a religion named “Buddhism” promoted by certain political authority, Mauryan Empire/Dynasty, Srivijayan Empire/Dynasty, Song Dynasty (Chan/Zen) among others.
Does it means the populace has risen to be “above intellect”.
Well no…
It means that the story and teaching of Siddhartha has turned into an ideology / religion used by those mentioned empire to rule their respective populace.

Another example:
The arabic label “islam” actually have meanings, it means “peacefully surrender”, surrender to the infinite or in Jesus teminology it’s mentioned as “Let your will be done, on earth as it’s in heaven”.
There’s a mention of “Golden Age of Islam” such as during the Baghdad Caliphate (Abbasid Empire) or Rashidun Empire.
Does it mean that the populace has “peacefully surrendered to the infinite”?
Well again no…
It means that the story and teaching of Muhammad has turned into an ideology / religion used by those mentioned empire to rule their respective populace. They named the ideology as “Islam”.

Jesus case, similar things happened, which we’re all already familiar.

Thus the pattern of:

Putting something / someone on a pedestal usually yield the same result and driven by the same purpose.

This sounds more like an apt description of the formation of Christianity, if you’re familiar with the Catholic church’s stranglehold on the European population in the Middle Ages. :slight_smile: Nowadays they only make the news again and again with yet another sexual abuse scandal…

But let me see if I can clear up another confusion which has arisen, due to my casual mention of the word “label” much earlier in this conversation, albeit briefly. This post.

I assumed it was quite apparent that I was referring to labeling people, not religions, philosophical movements, etc. The religion itself would be the label that is attached…


This is so illogical it hardly warrants a response… If we can’t use different names / labels / designations for different things, in this case different religions / philosophical movements (Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc), then how are we supposed to communicate?

Jesus has been pedestalised and placed in a position of worship - made a god / “holy trinity” etc. - (as Ra would say “we found ourselves in the hypocritical position of being acclaimed as other than your other-selves.) because of the very words on the very pages of the four canonical Gospels people are holding in their hands. “God’s only begotten Son” (John 3:16)…“No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6), among a host of other problematic passages (negative polarity). Let me repeat - it’s largely inconsequential to me the exact details of how and why words of this nature made its way to the printed page, only that it did.

You will not find anything of this nature in Buddhist & Hindu scriptures.

I have a loooong road trip ahead of me, we’re off camping! :partying_face: So I regretfully have to make myself scarce. Thanks everyone for an interesting exchange of ideas!

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“Label” supposed to act as a symbol / shortcut or link in today’s internet towards a specific ‘conception’.
As time progress the shortcut might evolved to refer to a different concept.

The shortcut “Buddha” now refer to “a particular person” or “a group of person / empire / kingdom in historical timeline”, thus “Golden Age” exist, as you’ve mentioned. While it supposed to be a shortcut to a ‘state of consciousness’. (Beyond Intellect or Enlightenment).

If there exist a “Golden Age” to such state of consciousness referred by the shortcut of “Buddha”, “Islam”, “Samadhi/Chan/Zen”, “Yoga” then I will say it is now or today’s age as we’re approaching the conclusion of an age/cycle. (Harvest Period).

“When Siddhartha talked only a handful listened, now when I talk millions watched over the internet”
– Sadhguru

Yes and not only figure/people (Jesus, Krishna, Muhammad, Siddhartha, Ra, Quo) but ‘concept’ can also be pedestalized.
Ranging from religion/ideology (labeled as “Buddhism”, “Zen”, “Islam”, “Christianity”, “Communism”, “Capitalism”) or even as menial as “Race”, “Nationality” or even “Football Club” or “Product Brand”.
As brilliantly explained by Hans Wilhelm, the effect of pedestalizing (putting something/someone as superior to one own self) is one will need to put others as inferior in comparation to one self to balanced it out.

Just enjoy the beautiful mess, my friend.

I found this website this morning, it shows art done by prisoners.

This one was done by someone who has been incarcerated for 38 years (and counting), and he named it “A Beautiful Mess”.

https://digitalcollections.sdsu.edu/do/4d1af18f-f518-4e2d-a1a9-626d49b34e04#page/1

Sri Ramakrishna:

"I have practised all religions - Hinduism, Islam, Christianity - and I have also followed the paths of the different Hindu sects.

I have found that it is the same God toward whom all are directing their steps, though along different paths. You must try all beliefs and traverse all the different ways once.

Wherever I look, I see men quarrelling in the name of religion - Hindus, Mohammedans, Brahmos, Vaishnavas, and the rest. But they never reflect that He who is called Krishna is also called Siva, and bears the name of the Primal Energy, Jesus, and Allah as well - the same Rama with a thousand names.

A lake has several Ghats. At one, the Hindus take water in pitchers and call it ’ Jal ’ ; at another the Mussalmans take water in leather bags and call it ’ pani '. At a third the Christians call it ’ water '. Can we imagine that it is not ’ Jal ’ , but only ’ pani ’ or ’ water '? How ridiculous!

The substance is One under different names, and everyone is seeking the same substance; only climate, temperament, and name create differences. Let each man follow his own path. If he sincerely and ardently wishes to know God, peace be unto him! He will surely realize Him."

•••

Ra:

“Were there no potentials for misunderstanding and, therefore, understanding, there would be no experience.”

•••

…and there’s the answer to “do not resist evil”, Oleksii :slight_smile: (I needed some time out in the wild with this one).

Resisting the opposite polarity, resisting “anything’s” antithesis, is resisting existence (experience) itself. There is only ONE power, not two (good & evil)…and this is the “non-dual” realisation the sages speak of.

The two polarities belong to the ‘relative world’, not the ‘absolute world’. Anything whatsoever can only be recognised and known in the relative world, due to the simultaneous existence of its antithesis.

Have a conversation with someone who was born blind, and she will tell you she has no conception of darkness, because she has no conception to light. Everything in the relative realm implies its antithesis, light implies darkness, happiness implies sorrow, birth implies death (in the absolute realm there is no death).

A magnet has two poles (north & south), cut off the south pole and it immediately forms a new south pole - they go together.

Wish away (reject) anything that causes you displeasure, and you might as well wish away anything that causes you pleasure. No appreciation of beauty would be possible without its comparable opposite - ugliness.

All of the above has to do with “realisation” and “insight”, not action, as per the example of the fourth density battle you mentioned. How to act when faced with “evil”, there are wisdom lessons involved there… we have a saying in our culture “what you fight, you strengthen” and “what you resist, persist”. …don’t know if it’s of relevance in this conversation…

Ra did say it’s the most difficult work of fourth density, so I think it might be above our paygrade for now. :upside_down_face:

Different densities, different lessons. We are heading to the density of love and understanding (4th), so we are learning love lessons, and opening the heart.

They (fourth density) are heading to the wisdom density (5th), so they are learning wisdom lessons.

I just think if Ra can’t even describe fourth density to us in terms of what ‘it is’, but rather what ‘it isn’t’, because it’s beyond our comprehension, then how much else is beyond our comprehension, especially something described as “most difficult”.

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