Phoenix,
I was not really debating your post, it was more one outside note, as interesting example of how forgiveness can be brought around and helped by an outside system, when desired by both sides.
What was very moving in the interview was the amount of respect towards each other it brought. So just an exemple of forgiveness.
So sorry if it distressed you in any way.
We can disagree with what someone is doing and yet forgive them. Forgiveness is not an acknowledgement that we support their actions. We can accept them exactly the way they are while rejecting their perspectives for ourselves.
That is right. Although, in my opinion, it is a very warm and loving thing to cease to hold resentment.
But please remember my comment about dancing with the Universe.
Why would evidence be needed by others? Youâll have evidence for yourself. Youâll observed the effects this has on you.
I believe that in the end we have very little agency on other people. Whether we forgive or not, it will not affect their actions very much. Only they can change if they so wish. The little effect we have is by acting as a mirror by them seeing what effects their actions have on us and how it affects our choices.
Since we care for ourselves as much as we care for others, we make decisions that will protect us and society from harm. Because, each of us, our point of view is as valid as the point of view of any wrong doers.
We can feel entitled to protect ourselves just as much as they feel entitled to do what they do.
Ah, but there is the rub. My argument was that âforgiveness is the highest goodâ is a flawed theology. It is incorrect and I have made many, many points to support this. For instance, that you are assuming yourself to be more wise than god in doing this since god only forgives with contrition.
What you are saying here is that those that do not forgive are going to experience revenge, hatred, disgust (this goes back to that if you donât forgive you will be consumed in the fires of hell). What I am saying is that people that forgive without contrition are the ones that will experience negative consequences. That forgiveness without contrition is a fundamentally incorrect theology and that the Law of One session that I have mentioned is discussing a PROCESS that might include forgiveness. Not that it necessarily does.
No, I didnât mean to offend you. This is your personal perception of my words.
Well, you can label them as pretty much anything after the fact. You can state your intention to be x and people often do this. But the wording to me is condescending. To say something is ânot that complicatedâ assumes I was not intelligent enough to understanding your superior point of view. Therefore, it is a condescension. It is talking down to me.
It also directly opposes the Law of One. Which stated that we are not able to understand third density.
Itâs not big deal. It was a point I disagreed with so I stated such. If you bring up a new article where forgiveness worked, I brought up one where it didnât.
Next time I want to respond to multiple I will do a general reply. I replied to someone else and then two showed up as I was doing it.
But forgiveness is a reward. Forgiveness is known as a good thing no? It is a thing where you are willing to give more love and positive things to another? So your perspective is that people that abuse and torture children should receive positive things. Isnât this incentivising?
If a child that had been tortured found out that people in the general society had âforgivenâ their abuser⌠What do you think they would feel?
Why would evidence be needed by others? Youâll have evidence for yourself. Youâll observed the effects this has on you.
The generally held view of forgiveness as it is held by most people, as the subject is understood via common wording. Is that it does involve actually dealing with others. I did do a search for the term to see exactly how the Law of One defines it and I am starting to wonder if they believe in the concept at all. Or if it is a red herring they only included because it is something we believe in?
Going back to this quote:
Questioner: If an entity develops what is called a karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalyst that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?
Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.
It is not clear what the difference is between stopping the behaviour and forgiving the self and stopping the behaviour and not forgiving the self? Is it just something they added in because we believe in it? Is it just we change our behaviours after understanding and accepting them?
I believe that in the end we have very little agency on other people. Whether we forgive or not, it will not affect their actions very much. Only they can change if they so wish. The little effect we have is by acting as a mirror by them seeing what effects their actions have on us and how it affects our choices.
Wouldnât that be the sin of despair? You are saying they will never attempt to change their behaviour and earn forgiveness so we just forgive them anyway? Also, does this not devalue the efforts of those that do legitimately earn forgiveness?
What you were saying earlier, what is the value of not forgiving the guys mother? Well I canât really speak for him. He is a philosopher and he can speak for himself and his discussions are hours long.
But A) What is the value of forgiving? Since earlier, just now in the conversation, you were not clear about your âhand on hot coalsâ argument applies to just you or to everyone? Because if it applies to just you then there is no reason to forgive. But if it applies to everyone then you werenât being truthful when you said it applied to just you?
So it is not proven that forgiving others does have any benefit. Unless you want to clarify and provide some sort of proof for that statement.
But there are all sorts of reasons to not forgive. Not having to wrestle with the phantom pseudo in the head forgiveness that canât ever be expressed to anyone else in the real world as one. Not having to justify the behaviours of an abuser which means we will repeat those behaviours ourselves. Anything we justify of others we allow in ourselves. Not having an unrepentant child abuser in your life and around your kids etc.
Of course, everything I am sharing is based on my understanding of Confederation teachings which can often be somewhat different from âconventionalâ or mainstream understanding. Forgiveness as portrayed by the Confederation is one such notion.
We are told that forgiveness is personal and not something we give to another. Our forgiveness is not even required by another. They can forgive themselves without involving others just as much as we can forgive without involving others.
What we do when we forgive is that we let go of our end of the karmic inertia. As in letting go of our end of a rope. The other can still keep a hold of it and so choose to remain bound by the karmic ramifications even if we were to forgive and let go of our side of it.
I hope it would inspire them to see forgiveness in a different light than what they have been led to believe by society.
The way this works is that by forgiving yourself, you are letting go of the karma. Here is how it would play out. If I have wronged another, then I may forgive myself for this misstep and never again repeat whatever offended the other. This would remove any karmic ramifications I might have acquired by my offense.
Of course, this is not very realistic. Chances are the misstep will be repeated and require again to repeat the process of forgiving the self and starting fresh again.
I believe the goal is not really to succeed in never repeating offenses, but rather in trying to do so.
It is the setting of the intention to forgive that is an extremely meaningful statement from the self to the self, rather than success in forgiving.
Basically, we are putting karma on ourselves in the first place so that we get repeated opportunities/catalysts/chances to come to this realization in due time and freely choose to let go. Itâs a process that may take billions of years of experience where we try everything else to balance our karma. But all we achieve is swinging it one way then the other. Until we discover for ourselves that true forgiveness is the only thing that stop karma for good.
We can always hope to inspire others to change their behaviour. Not by asking them to change, but by demonstrating alternative ways of doing things, alternate ways of thinking and being.
We can only be a living example that hopefully will inspire. We can make an example of our lives.
This has to be done while balancing compassion with wisdom and vice-versa. It is unwise to become a martyr for example and let yourself be exploited.
I believe this applies to everyone, but it is only my personal belief that it does. 
I do not feel a need for a consensus that would validate this point of view.
To me, it is just how things are in my Universe.
I made a thread about each of us creating our own Universe here and why what is called âconsensus realityâ is really just an illusion: We create our own story
I hope this doesnât sound offensive. But after this single sentence I think we are going to have to part ways or âagree to disagreeâ, as common vernacular. I feel I need to pray to god to help me with the understanding of a world where this sentence is uttered. Weâll see how it goes.
Best Wishes.
I assure you, there is no offense taken. All is well my friend. 
This I believe is the best anyone can do. All of my understanding comes from exercising a prayerful attitude, asking for help with everything and anything and putting it in practice in everyday life.
Iâll just drop a little quote from that thread I mentioned above.
This is your opinion. There are many opinions. To forgive, how exactly to forgive, is your personal business.
Iâm not saying that. Iâm saying that itâs one of the options, that you can choose revenge. You can choose not to. And who told you that people will experience negative consequences? Youâre talking about your subjective experience.
Good morning Children of the law of one.
I enjoyed this thread. There is much nourishment here, and many highs and lows in feeling, and decisions of which words to use and do they have the same meaning to others. Very good.
I wish to offer a theme that may be of use to someone, as well as share some examples I am struggling with, in my one world.
Scenario 1. I work as a subcontractor and do jobs for numerous other small companies installing rooftop solar. I took on two jobs for Suzlon solar on consecutive days, a one day job and a 3 day job. There were variations in both jobs for which any other company would pay me extras. Suzlon refused, and justified his view by saying âthat is why we get you to agree to a fixed price before accepting the jobâ.
On job 1, the roof material was a decromastic type, when the job pack stated it was concrete tile. I only discovered this upon arrival. My team and I finished the job, using my spare parts for the new roof material as the ones he supplied are not suited, and would be returned to the warehouse. At the end of that day, I asked him for the standard extra for that roof type. He refused. This upset me, as the extra time taken to install on decromastic will not be financially compensated.
Having had numerous similar prior withholding of variation payments in the past with Suzlon solar I made it clear we will cease working for him. I would only be doing job 2 as it was booked for the following day, and this would be the best outcome for the customer, and even my team as I cannot line up other work at such short notice, and also for Suzlon solar as he had committed us to the install date.
Job 2 was a larger job, installing 19.2kW of solar panels on a single storey house. Some electrical variations in the switchboard were required, as well the panel layout needed to be changed to fit. Once again he would not pay variations, but did promise to âwork things out with us, just do whatever the customer needsâ to finish the installation.
Now the jobs are both finished, my company and team did a great job, the customers are both happy. But the grief this suzlon company is causing me is giving me a lot of anger emotions. I feel he is not being fair to me. He is being greedy, and not willing to provide fair and reasonable financial compensation for work performed. He is withholding the entire payment for the larger job, until I change my invoice to match his selfish low figure.
Sometimes I have thoughts of putting roofing screws under his car tyres, so when he leaves work he will feel as let down as I do in my present emotional state.
I have a choice.
I could #1 hold onto the anger and resentment. I can immerse in it, dwell upon it, strengthen it, and make new fantasies in my imagination of how I can get revenge. I can justify this angle to myself, because he is being mean and not being fair in business.
I could #2 not forgive, but move on anyway, burying the resentment and avoiding thinking about it, or him, like covering a festering wound up so you do not have to look at it. Change my invoice, accept the work price he wants to pay and allow him to âwinâ because I can see I am not going to squeeze any variations out of this stone heart anyway.
I could #3 meditate. I wonder what this one is.
I could #4 recognise my amazing opportunity in front of me. This is catalyst as spoken of in the Ra material. It is useful training material.
I could #5 take responsibility for the creation, and stop dwelling on blame.
I could #6 after #5 and #4 I could further reason the resentment stems from a fear in my own mind. My fear of my own worth not being recognised in the eyes of others, is steering this boat. As I would prefer my love for my own worth to be the captain of this ship, it would pay to recognise the fear making all the waves of resentment, acknowledge it - in meditation or reflection, to comfort and reassure my inner child that there will always be others who reject us, always be others in the social complex who are selfish, and have their own agenda, and will not be fair minded. That is alright! We are not here to judge them, but to forgive our self for feeling unappreciated!!
Reassure my inner child-self that it is alright to be angry! It is alright to want validation.
I shall go in this direction, and I choose to stop dwelling on the resentment. I feel a lot of the resentment falls away after acknowledging and then reassuring the inner me. Suppressing the feelings of being undervalued was the cause of the resentment.
In my next communication with Suzlon, I will express something like the following:
"I understand you dont want to pay for variations. I understand my expectation that variations are always treated as extras and should be compensated accordingly. I understand you push for a set price, where every other company is respectful of the fact many variations will only become evident when onsite, and will pay for them once notified. I am not asking you to change. I think you are stealing from me by having me do work free of charge, but you do not see it that way. I accept that your perversion of fairness is the way you wish to conduct business with others. I do not operate that way. We will cease doing business from this day forth. Enjoy your picnic that is the suffering of others. I wish to picnic with beings of light, and offer our fine services as a business to others that are honourable like ourselves.
I am not asking you to change, Suzlon. I forgive you to level 1. Meaning I no longer wish to punch you in the face. We can part ways, we can separate. You reflect to me, a more selfish side, than I wish to resonate to. One day I may even have compassion for you , which would be forgiveness level 10. But not today. Level one is sufficient, that is what I offer you, so that my path is not burdened by anger. I am free.
Forgivness has levels, right?
Jesus level forgiveness can be marked as level 10âŚeven when they are murdering him, he just loves them. Wow. thatâs not for me.
Level 1, stop the projection of blame. Accept they do not meet our standards.
OK, but in my understanding of the situation there is an element that hasnât been addressed that has a huge relevance. That is your lack of power in this situation. I am not sure of the specifics. But:
A) Do you have the ability to legally challenge this individual to pay the higher figure? I take it if someone contracts you to work, and you give them an invoice, and they have contracted you to complete the work. Presumably they would have to pay that invoice, legally?
B) If it was extremely easy and a normal thing in the industry to sue this employer. Would you do this? Say in the industry there was a quick way to handle this and you had a lawyer on retainer for precisely this reason, who could get you fully paid quickly with minimum hassle.
Because if you would have no ethical objection to legal action if it was easy then your motivation for âforgivenessâ is not in fact virtue. It is the avoidance of conflict. I donât think there is anyone likely in this forum that would think it would be out of order to take an employer to court for this behaviour.
I think this highlights another very important principle in the âforgivenessâ discussion. One of the things that the Law of One seemed to me to go to pains to clarify, was that when Jesus was put on that cross he was not powerless. The narrative I hear sometimes is almost as though an infant was being slaughtered. But he was capable of slaughtering everyone there with telekinetic powers which he had demonstrated throughout his life (17.17). He chose to forgive from a position of power. In fact, strictly, he did not even forgive the crowd himself. The passage did not have him say to the crowd âI forgive youâ but to petition God to do so. Perhaps because he was not strong enough to do so himself.
It seems to me, that forgiveness CANNOT HAPPEN from a place of powerlessness (one way this might be expressed is contrition on the part of the evildoer. Since then you have been given the power to either forgive or withhold forgiveness). Because we can never know for sure if we are motivated by virtue, or simply that we do not have the power to change the situation. This was one of my first big insights into forgiveness I think.
It would seem unwise to me to cultivate âfake virtueâ because it would create a great deal of confusion for the individual.
This reminds me slightly of Neitszcheâs âSlave Moralityâ. Where a slave reframes things they are forced into into virtues (So they are not slaves they are self sacrificing saints!) The problem that comes around here is that the slaves then look at things that are genuinely virtuous, like being industrious and creating wealth, as sins, as part of their morality system.
I wonder if I should draw parallels with a situation in my own life and how I consider it in relation to forgiveness, but I will leave it here for the moment.
Also another point here.
I am not saying what is or is not the best way to handle the situation, because I donât know. But I believe the things I am highlighting might bring light to the situation to make sure that it is accurately perceived. There will be times when we have to part with our principles in this life for whatever reason. But, it is good to know thatâs what we are doing.
It seems to me that you were advised, had foreknowledge ahead of time, that you would be underpaid. So, in effect, you valued yourself and your team, at a lower level than your perceived worth. So in effect, the employer here is valuing you at the same price to which you valued yourself.
Would it have been possible to sit down with your team and make it a group decision? Will they also be underpaid. To assume that none of your team have personal principles that would object to working for such an employer even if they took a pay cut is an assumption it seems to me. This might also prove true for any action going forward. Does the entire team support pay cut or legal action? People do have personal principles in general. Not everyone, sometimes not most people. But it is an assumption to say they donât.
In a previous job I had, they expected free overtime for work they were actively creating for profit. So they would send out marketing emails and get a lot more customers, and then close to the end of the shift just assign you a bunch of emails and expect you to stay. Which I didnât, I got up and walked out. While all the other workers in my department stayed, and gossiped abut me. I was âtreated badlyâ, I wonât say bullied, and âlet go ofâ for indirect reasons, but with a reference thatâs nice. But I could not see the rational behind staying (I was also unaware of the weakness of employment laws here. Even with a disability.)
Also, just on a personal level do not say this:
âI understand you dont want to pay for variations. I understand my expectation that variations are always treated as extras and should be compensated accordingly. I understand you push for a set price, where every other company is respectful of the fact many variations will only become evident when onsite, and will pay for them once notified. I am not asking you to change. I think you are stealing from me by having me do work free of charge, but you do not see it that way. I accept that your perversion of fairness is the way you wish to conduct business with others. I do not operate that way. We will cease doing business from this day forth. Enjoy your picnic that is the suffering of others. I wish to picnic with beings of light, and offer our fine services as a business to others that are honourable like ourselves.â
This will only be funny to said employer. It is so unbelievably powerlessly passive aggressive. Itâs the kind of thing STS types of people think is hysterical.
I honestly do not think this is a passive agressive one.
I think stating facts. as it was submitted to and lived by Lightfoot, is stating facts.
I think it is an often great part in letting things go, and, letting the other self deal equally honestly with what was done.
I find this way of resolving things a very fair and just way as it offers both you and the other self to keep on their own path
And I so agree with you Lightfoot, that comforting the inner child on recognizing the feeelingof not being appreciated and this being all right not to be. This is such an essential step, 
Great job !! lol
I do not understand this observation. I am not powerless. I am powerful. I manifested this exact scenario, to explore my emotional reactions to it. I have the authority to get revenge, to passively feel used, to accept dissonance with my inner knowing, to decide what future I wish to explore - more of this with that guy, or letâs move on to other relationships. I have great power and authority in this situation.
I can choose a well reasoned outlook, which is what I will do by stopping all business transactions with suzlon.
I can accept the loss, or I can fight tooth and nail for it. It is up to me. All these varied choices are in my path, and I have the power to choose which way I walk. Freedom is mine. I am not shackled by his behaviour.
To answer some questions mentioned. A. I have a verbal agreement with him, not a contract. Despite a written list of variation charges, he ignores it.
B. I am not a suing person. If he wants the money that badly, let him have it. Laywers cost more than the small charges I am dealing with. I am not a particularly good business person. I enjoy my work, and the hands-on side, more than business management.
My workers will not be underpaid, it is only my business profit margin that is reduced.
I would not have said " Enjoy your picnic that is the suffering of others." out loud, and I went overboard using that wording. He is simply a bit too greedy for my harmony, but certainly not actively pursuing harm to others in businessâŚand not evil. Just wants a big piece of the cake for himself, thatâs all.
It is my opinion that forgiveness, regardless of the motivation, is still forgiveness. Whether the transgressor has remorse or not is not relevant to your ability to forgive, and your decision to do it or not. It would make it harder to forgive, I am sure, if they are mocking you, but that is the limit of their power.
Great discussion.
I have not had a good day Flo. I just woke up from sleeping and I have been sleeping a hell of a lot. My life seems to just be sleeping at the moment. My health condition sucks vitamin D out of my system and when the sun went in I didnât supplement. This leads to 14 hours + sleep per day. A little less today since I have been supplementing. But still a LOT more than usual. Usually 10 hours and two naps in the day. For the past week or so. Itâs weird.
Anyway, I saw this post and thought⌠Do I respond to this? If it had not addressed me directly, I would not have. At least I donât think.
Here is my thoughts on that.
This forum, in general it seems to me, if I had not come along. Massively prefers, as the dominant held perspective, what you just stated. Not an enabling per sey. That is a female distortion of psychology. How do I describe it better? An approach to the Law of One generally less hard with Law of One quotes and generally very high on abstract information and statements about love and subjectivism - everything must be subjective all the time. With a deep faith in the idea of things such as forgiveness and contrition.
I am distressing the people here with a perspective that is high on Law of One quotes and introspection it seems to me. High on concepts such as accountability and stuff.
Since I have arrived I have put a lot of threads here. A lot of long responses as to how I see things. Some threads have been discussed. Many times I have directly spoken to people with long answers on something and the post didnât receive a like, or a reply acknowledging that. For instance, the first post I came here with âOn the balancing exercisesâ. I made a long to the point answer and the person who started the post didnât acknowledge it.
There are also many threads where I started and there is no response or there is some kind of pushback. There is also what I would class as âgood natured discussionâ on some that should not be confused with this.
But, you know. Itâs tiring. Putting out information and people not acknowledging and/ or ignoring it. ESPECIALLY as I am not well. People here obviously had an idea on densities before I arrived that my perspective disagreed with as another example.
So, I tell you what, to the entire forum really. Just donât reply directly to me on these threads anymore and I wonât come back and molest you with my perspective. Does that seem fair? The forum seems to not really know what to do about the fact I am posting and my perspective does not agree with theirs.
I see your post Pheonix, and I am truly sorry you are not well.
I apologize, I just meant I didnât see that attitude a passive aggressive. I was just seeing this differently from you⌠and evidently this is how we all have certain view unique to each of us.
Phoenix even if ti seems you may not get response to the many interesting posts you have written there, no reaction and answer do not mean that the posts you opload are of no interest to other posters, In fact I have liked many things you undeined on different subject and I start to think off it then later, Even If I there seems to be no answer it might be often because we are often taken by the things of life, lol
I hope you do not stop posting. Again many of your posts have made me see or view things differently. Which. is why they are so interesting. At least to me but I am sure to many others here.
Fact is this is hwy this forum is so interesting to me.
I followed a link on the daily Qâuote from L/L research, and found this deep and meaningful explanation from Carla channelling Hatonn in 1984.
There is then the chance to be gratefulâto be grateful, to give thanks, to shout aloud with praise at nothing, for what seems to be real is disease, disharmony, discomfort or despair. As you express thanks, so the seed will be sown. To whom it manifests is always unknown. Your seed may be sown for another or for yourself. Planting has little to do with harvest. However, if you can be thankful for the simple gift of consciousness, if no more than that, if you can be quiet and peaceful in the face of difficulty, if your heart may shout with joy and ecstasy in the face of discomfort, then that which you manifest to the universe shall be that light, that manifestation of the one original Thought in your own unique expression that brings not just to you, but to those who surround you a reflecting manifestation of thankfulness and gratitude.
The technique of gratitude, rather, is much like that archetype which shows a fool or a wise man stepping off into space.
I can really see the wisdom in these words from 40 years ago and will apply it to the scenario above of the greedy company withholding variation payments.
I shall now attempt to be grateful for this uncomfortable experience.
Thank you Buddha for calming me,
I sit and breathe more gratefully,
In each breath I could plant the seed,
More love flowers or more fear weed.
I shall rest here and contemplate,
Why his decisions make me hate,
For deep inside I know The Law,
The Law of One I came here for.
While he prefer to reward self,
And share not fairly all the wealth,
Does he dishonour me at all,
For I am worthy! I stand tall.
He shall not bring me down this day,
My healing tone does light the way.
~
(breaks into an oldie but a goodie:)
As my lungs fill with gratitude,
I feel the love so deep inside,
The miracle of attitude,
Can change the path that life provide.
The Grandest song that I can sing,
Is calling forth the light we are,
Now THANK YOU for my EVERYTHING,
In most amazing life so far.
This gift of life I shall embrace,
As part of grandest human race.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
indeed indeed Lightfoot,
such it is the same relief feeling for me, bringing smile inside, whenever I go into gratitudeâŚ