Density Level Confusion reading archive

I am slowly making my way through the channeling archives of l/l research. I am still not yet to the time when Ra began being channeled.

I am reading June 17, 1979. Previous to this, Hatonn was described as being from the density of love and Latwii as from the density of light. All cool so far. But then at one point Hatonn is described as being two densities above the human realm.

But in this entry of June 17, 1979, where the concept of octaves containing octaves is introduced, Hatonn very clearly states that they are at the fifth level, humans are at third, and between them is the astral plane where thoughts are the clear reality and matter is clearly seen as being an illusion.

This teaching matches a lot of the people out there saying that we are to strive to go from 3D to 5D and that between them is a realm that we are to pass through quickly, as it is not a useful place to linger.

Before today I had wondered if that was misinformation intentionally planted by STS to encourage the idea of skipping the heart chakra as STS do, wanting to go straight from solar plexus chakra to throat, keeping the heart closed. While they have their own version of the fourth density of love, it contains no love for others, only the self.

But now I am confused. I will keep reading in the hopes that this will clear up. The only thing I can think of right now is that just as it has been made clear that the same octave can be divided into seven for a pleasing scale, it can also be divided into 12 chromatic notes. Also the chakras, often seen as seven, it is said they can also be seen as 12. I seem to recall some suggestion that the densities, from one perspective, could be seen as 12. Maybe different perspectives divide them up differently? Just as you can make different kinds of seven note scales from the 12 to choose from? The pentatonic scale only has five notes after all.

Any one out there have information that I don’t have? I will keep reading through the archives and share if I find anything that enlightens my confusion.


I think the difference is that one is density of conciousness and another one is phisical dimension. The Alchemist was also mentioning it:

It is challenging to pinpoint why discrepancies exist regarding Hatonn’s positioning within the realms of Densities. I have reviewed the specific session you provided, and despite these uncertainties, it conveys a message of love and unity characteristic of Density of Love (4th Density STO).

In that same channeling session, Hatonn had previously stated that he is from the 5th Density. Nevertheless, he summarizes his message with these words:

All these things you cannot know; but, above all, you cannot know by mind alone that which must be given to you by direct intuition of the truth—the one simple truth, my friends, that we are all one and that we must love one another. Many of your masters have spoken to you of this, and we can only repeat it. It is the only lesson worth learning.
Source: June 17, 1979 - Sunday meditation - L/L Research

The emphasis is on the fact that fundamental understanding does not arise from the mind (which might be associated with the 5th Density of Light/Wisdom), but rather, essential understanding is a truth that can be recognized through intuition (through the Heart). Furthermore, the quintessence of love and the unity of all are underscored. Such a message is emblematic of the essence of the 4th Density STO, not the 5th Density STO (although the 5th Density is not precluded here, as it encompasses the experiences of the 4th Density).

By the way, if we consider the STS path, the evolution of the soul also progresses through Densities step by step, without skipping. First 4D STS, next 5D STS. At the 4D STS, STS entities oppose by their attitude everything that is love.

Perhaps some turbulence and negative influences occurred during the cited Hatonn session, yet the overall message in this session is, in my opinion, decidedly positive.

In January 21, 2017 Q’uo made an interesting statement regarding what positions various channeling contacts within an extended context:

The beginning principle of Q’uo was, as you have stated: those of Hatonn of the fourth density, those of Latwii of the fifth density, and those of Ra of the sixth density, blending together in a principle that sought to continue the work of those of Ra with this work (…).
Source: January 21, 2017 - Saturday meditation - L/L Research

According to my knowledge of channeling material from Hatonn to Q’uo. It is quite specifically said that there are 8 Densities. And there are 8 centers/chakras in order: (first) red ray center, (second) orange ray center, yellow ray center, green ray center, blue ray center, indigo ray center, violet ray center, (and the last) 8th center is the Crown.

Centers, as I understand them, are akin to processors capable of managing the flow of energy and information. They serve as channels that process (receive) and transmit (expressing) energy and information at a specific Density level.

If an influence originates from the 1st Density, the ‘processor’ designed to receive this influence would be the red ray center. A straightforward example would be the red ray center receiving love/light energy from the Earth and converting it into a desire to live, endure, and reproduce - this constitutes the processing/receiving aspect. An example of the transfer/expression process facilitated by the red ray center might involve a conscious decision to, for instance, physically fight for survival. While this is not optimal and we aspire for the energy to ascend to enable us to operate through higher centers, the red ray center nonetheless allows us to express such activities as fighting for survival, acting as a ‘processor’ of this activity.

Moving forward: the ‘processor’ for the 2nd Density will be the orange ray center, while the ‘processor’ for the 3rd Density will be the yellow ray center, and the ‘processor’ for the 4th Density will be the green ray center. As I wrote, these ‘processors’ can function in a way that allows us to receive external stimuli through their respective centers. For instance, the green ray center, acting as a ‘processor,’ might enable us to intuitively perceive another person’s intentions and present energies. Furthermore, this ‘processor’ can serve as a tool for the expression of consciousness, allowing us to express, for instance, infinite power of compassion paired with unconditional love, towards an enemy who has harmed us - this is an action that not be permitted, for example, by the 3rd Density ‘processor’ - the yellow ray center, so we need 4th Density ‘processor’ - the green ray center/heart chakra.

We could continue in this manner, up to the 7th Density. The 7th Density is the Creator, embodying All That Is, and representing the Intelligent Energy of love and light. As it embodies All, the 7th Density encompasses Densities 1 through 6 while also existing autonomously as the 7th Density itself.

Corresponding to the 7th Density is the crown chakra/violet ray center. This center energetically reflects the full value of the energy complex from 1-6 and is 7th autonomous energy center; much like how the 7th Density encompasses Densities 1 through 6 within itself and be autonomous Density. The 7th Density, representing this entire cycle— the complete Octave (1-7).

In the end, there is the 8th Density, and something corresponding to this is the Crown. The Crown is not the crown chakra/violet ray energy. I am referring more to a Crown made by white light that is situated above the head. The 8th Density, as well as the corresponding eighth energy center of the Crown, represents the highest conscious level of existence (it is Intelligent Infinity) and encompasses within itself the infinite cycle of Octave (1-7) of Densities, being itself the mysterious beginning and mysterious end of everything. Something that contains within it all these repeating cycles from 1 to 7 Densities, yet has nothing above and beyond it.

I didn’t provide examples pertaining to all centers/chakras (or ‘processors,’ for the sake of this discussion), as doing so would make this post excessively long. I simply aim to give you a glimpse into my understanding.

To summarize, from my perspective, there are neither 12 centers/chakras nor 5 centers/chakras. There are 8 Densities, with 1-7 constituting all of existence, which can be considered the ‘body’ of the Creator, embodying love and light. The 8th Density envelops this cycle with its Unity in One/Infinity. This is mirrored in the 7 chakras/centers, each correlating to physical locations within the human body, while the 8th center, situated outside the body above the head, is visually interpreted by me as a pure white crown. I also if it comes to the Confederation’s teaching, I have not encountered entities of the Confederation referring to 5 or 12 Densities or chakras/centers.

I hope that my explanation has brought you closer to the concepts of Densities and energy centers/chakras. If I may offer a suggestion, given that contact with Confederation entities has evolved and refined over the years, I believe it’s better to start with Ra and then explore Q’uo. Q’uo, as they mention, embodies a certain ‘principle’ that involves collaboration across Densities 4 to 6. I would consider earlier channelings (prior to Ra) as supplemental material, which I may or may not revisit depending on my specific interests, as they may contain information that particularly intrigues me. So, I would suggest to you focusing on Ra and Q’uo, leaving the earlier channelings as optional material. You will get more quickly engaged with the truly relevant information for you.


I can’t really comment on the veracity of the “conscious channeling” of L/L, but where the Ra contact is concerned, the progression through densities is definitely sequential.

And the same applies to the clearing of the chakras, it’s sequential:

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My understanding of the confusion in the new age circles regarding 3d to 4d versus 3d to 5d, is whether the framework uses the concept of time/space vs space/time or not.

So when you see 3d going to 5d, it means that 4d is the time/space portion of 4d and 5d is the space/time portion (of 4d in Ra speak).

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Thank you for your response. :slight_smile: I actually did start with the Ra Materials. I completed reading them last year. I felt so bereft when I realized the Ra contact was cut short by the death of Don. I mourned that we only got the beginnings of the explanation of the tarot archetypes. I often felt frustrated that Don did not ask the questions that I would have asked had I been the questioner.

In that space of pondering after completing the Ra contact and hungry for more, I decided I would read the archive from the beginning. It is a slow process, but it is so richly rewarding.

There are other places in the archive where the channeled source compares a seven chakra perspective to a twelve chakra perspective, and I have been considering that this might correspond to a different perspective on the densities also, and might explain why in these early channelings, there is the perspective of Hatonn being two levels above this realm rather than just one above. I will keep reading and seeking understanding.


Yes, this makes sense to me. Especially since Hatonn specifically describes the gap between their density and this one as the astral plane, and I know that elsewhere, the astral plane is described as being the time/space companion to this space/time.


I am a Tarot scholar of 50+ years and the best book I have found on the Major Arcana Tarot archetypes is by Jason Lotterhand titled “The Spoken Cabala”, sold by Fraternity of the HIdden Light

Where some of the Tarot teachings can be a bit serious - Jason is light, funny and empowering. He was a student of Paul Foster Case - he has left the planet but is a member of our off-planet Tarot family who are accessible for guidance.

If I can be of further assistance, let me know.

Blessings, El


Strange, Jim says they are from 4th density.


In the Ra Material, each density has a time/space and space/time aspect to it. In between incarnations, we are in time/space with just a mind/spirit complex (no body). In the Ra Material, the 8th density is the 1st density of the next octave. Sometimes Ra uses “density” and “octave” interchangeably. (47.8) At some point Ra says “We have the number seven repeated from the macrocosm to the microcosm in structure and experience.”

I read the Hatonn channeling part where they talk about the sub-densities. I think you misread.

There are, indeed, seven levels within the realm within the next dimension or quantum—from you. This plane has been called by Theosophists the astral plane. Beyond that quantum there is a further octave of seven, and that plane is sometimes called the devachanic.

They are saying that there are sub-planes we can eventually enter in 4th density (but the primary embodied experience is still there). Ra says the astral and devachanic is in the 3rd density. A bit of a discrepancy. Perhaps 4th-density inner planes is the same as 3rd-density inner planes, just higher frequency and more loving (this is how I’ve experienced it in my hundreds of OBEs).

Here are some relevant transcripts:

Questioner: I’ve heard that there are seven astral and seven devachanic primary levels. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. You speak of some of the more large distinctions in levels in your inner planes. That is correct.

Questioner: Well, then if an entity is harvested into fourth density with a grade, let’s say, of fifty-one percent for others, forty-nine percent for self, what level of the fourth density would he go into? I’m assuming there are different levels of the fourth density.
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Each enters the sub-density which vibrates in accordance with the entity’s understanding.

Questioner: How many levels do we have here in the third density at this time?
Ra: I am Ra. The third density has an infinite number of levels.

Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?
Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.

strange as this may sound, the context of
understanding may be chakra based, not
language based, per se. That is, there may
be some 4d plane which is best understood
by an open heart chakra, there may be
some 5d plane best understood by some
open throat chakra, there may be a 6d
plane best understood by an active indigo

This concept of understanding
then escapes most 3d experience because
the higher chakras are commonly dormant.
So 3d density as more about polarization
than understanding, and relates to lower
chakra interplay, in many instances.

This forum as full of enlightened folks
much better explains this than this off the
cuff comment does, and expands on this
notion that generalizations seem useless
because each individual seems unique,
that there’s infinite ways to individuate.

Pretty inline with the material:

Questioner: I am assuming it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from third to fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. Understanding is not of this density.